Authentic Leadership in Action: Women’s Voices, Mentorship, and Community Building

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host KiKi L'Italien, host of Association Chat, leads a conversation with award-winning leaders Lori Anderson, President and CEO of the International Sign Association, and Debra BenAvram, CEO of the Association for the Advancement of Blood and Biotherapies. The conversation delves into authentic leadership, highlighting the importance of amplifying women’s voices and fostering community within the association world. Lori and Debra share their personal leadership journeys, reflecting on pivotal moments, influential mentors, and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. Topics include overcoming challenges, the value of mentorship and peer networks, and the significance of foresight in navigating leadership complexities. They also discuss strategies for maintaining personal growth and resilience, with practical insights on mindfulness and intentional time management.

Check out the video podcast here:

https://youtu.be/bhWVK64OpzQ?feature=shared

 

Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.

 

Transcript

 

KiKi L'Italien  00:00
Welcome to the Associations NOW Presents podcast, I'm your guest host, KiKi L'Italien, and if you're thinking, "Hey, I know that name or I know that voice," you're right. It's because you usually hear me over at Association Chat. But today, I'm excited to be hosting this special episode of Associations NOW Presents, because we're continuing this powerful conversation that really started at what's called ASAE's The Exchange. And this is a women's leadership event that is really special, and our focus today to continue on this discussion is authentic leadership. We're talking about authentic leadership, the power of women's voices, and how we can build a supportive community in the association space. So joining me are two inspiring, award winning leaders, Lori Anderson, President and CEO of the International Sign Association, and Debra BenAvram, CEO of Association for the Advancement of Blood and Biotherapies. So I want to just do this, and start out at the very start, to just say congratulations, because, as I understand it, even though you've both won awards before, you have just recently been recognized, Lori as 2025 Trade Association Executive of the Year, and Debra, you were recognized as a 2025 Professional Society Association Executive of the Year. Congratulations to both of you.

01:33
Thank you so much

KiKi L'Italien  01:34
Yes, it's really amazing to be here. And I have to say, I have followed your work for many years and watched you in this space, recognized leaders. And so what I thought we could do today is just start off by talking about your personal journeys into leadership, because I know that each path is unique. Definitely in the association industry, there can be many different ways that we get to where we are, but I'm sure that there are shared experiences that have shaped both of you. So I thought what we would do is maybe start with what inspired you to step into these leadership roles. So were there pivotal moments or mentors who helped guide you along the way? So Debra, I'm starting with you. What about it? What made you decide to step into this leadership role in the first place? 

Debra BenAvram  02:25
Thanks you so much, KiKi. I would love to tell you that I had this grand plan from the age of five to become a leader and to do it by this age and set all those goals. That's really never been my style. So when I was thinking about what sort of led me to this moment, I think what I might have been was not savvy enough to realize that I wasn't supposed to ask questions or ask permission, and just always threw myself into opportunities. My last organization, when there was a clear need for a new strategic plan or a new area that we needed staff leadership in, I raised my hand and but I did that by doing it, and I think that, for better or worse, led me to have lots of different experiences that I didn't know maybe I wasn't supposed to have or be asking for. And when the CEO role opened up at that organization, I had this out-of-body moment where the board was telling me that the position was now open, and I said, "I'm right here. Why don't you put me in that role?" And that was not particularly characteristic of me, but it is what ended up happening. I applied for the role and took it, and what inspired me was that I saw I could be the change. I saw what change could be. I saw what possibilities were. And I love the power of associations and bringing people together. And I think we do that with our staff, and we do that with our volunteers and our members. I just love that. It was really inspired. And I wanted the opportunity to do more, to keep throwing my hat in and keep bringing that forward and growing the business and growing the value that we were delivering to our members. And I loved what I did there, and I got to, now, get to do that at a different organization, in terms of what maybe mentors or who inspire me. A pivotal moment for me in terms of putting myself around the right colleagues was at an ASAE Annual Meeting shortly after I became CEO. So this is going back long time and Arlene Pietranton and the late John Graham led a round table for young CEOs—because I used to be a young CEO—and there were not so many of us at that time, but we sat around this table, and I got to see not only meet colleagues, some of whom today are among my very best friends, both within the association, community and personally. But I got to see what it looked like to be a giving colleague and to be around colleagues like Arlene and John, who were just freely sharing their experiences that moment in time which I can see in my head as I'm telling you this story that led me to recognize I needed to get into peer groups because I was reinventing wheels, and I was alone. No matter what level of leader you are, you're alone in some way, shape or form. And very quickly, I got myself into a few different peer groups and tried them out. And some fit, some didn't. And I learned how to build a community, a kitchen cabinet of people that I could learn from that were similar to me, that were different from me, that had more experience or less experience than me. And that gift, really, that got from what I learned from ASAE colleagues—whether I did that within the framework of ASAE or not—that is what I really credit the rest of my career journey to this day is being in this community and building peer networks within it that I can learn from with, be vulnerable with and learn from each other's experiences.

KiKi L'Italien  06:16
When you are talking about that, it resonates so much, because I think, what if we didn't have some of these important connections that we had made? And it really is, you can get so much further when you have those relationships in place, and you can ask the questions and get the information that you need, or make the connections that you need to in order to advance. How about you, Lori? What about for you? What was your story?

Lori Anderson  06:43
That's a has some similarities to Debra, when my very first career was a teacher. And I knew I didn't want to do that forever. And I quit without any plan, and that was terrifying. So I look back at the things that have helped me grow. It's that I do things that are scary, but I ask for help, and asking for help is critical. I found a career coach because I literally had no idea what I wanted to do, and I remember the restaurant we were in. I remember the table we were in, and he asked me a pivotal question that changed my life. And the question was, "What gets you hot? What gets you mad? What gets you boiling?" And at the time, it had to do with politics, whoever was in office at the time. And he said, "Why don't you do something there?" And I went, "I can't do that. I'm a former music teacher." And he goes, "Why not?" And it got me thinking, why not. And it took me nine months to convince a member of Congress to hire a former music teacher. And it was scary. Those nine months I didn't have a job, and all of a sudden I was in a position of doing something that I was just really passionate about, and people would be coming and lobbying me. And I thought maybe I could do that. So then I started looking at getting a lobbying job, and I happened to land in an association where the Vice President of Government Relations was also involved in music. So there was this music connection, I think he sang for the Kennedy Center Choir or something like that. And his wife was a music teacher, so we had that weird connection right away. And he was such a mentor, and he threw me into like Deb, gave me challenges, and just saw what was in me, that I wasn't just a former music teacher, right? I had a lot to offer, and he kept challenging me and giving me assignments that I thought I could never do, but he also encouraged me to join, and in this particular association, there was no other member of ASAE, and it was a large Association, and I joined ASAE, I joined Women in Government Relations. I joined WGR Toastmasters. I honed my speaking abilities, and those connections got me where I am. In fact, the recruiter who called me for my current position knew I was looking through WGR Toastmasters, and she recommended to the recruiter to call me. It's all about connections. It's all about finding people. And when I started at ISA, I needed new connections. I wasn't really in government affairs anymore. I was in a leadership role. I joined CEO groups. Debra and I met in a CEO group, and then we ended up on the as a board together at the same time. And so our leadership paths followed. That the importance of reaching out and connecting to other folks. And even now, there's not a question I get. What do I do with this particular problem? You have a group of people, groups of people who can help answer the question, and that's the beauty of associations, because everyone's willing to help, and the people who are willing to help. They really become your network, your support group, when things get really tough or when things are going great. 

KiKi L'Italien  10:29
Okay, first of all, I know so much more about you now. This is fascinating, and I have follow up questions for when we meet up at something down the road, what type of music? What got you involved? But we're not going there today, I noticed some themes in both of your responses so far, definitely about the community and the importance of connections, but then also, it's those connections that were helping you overcome challenges. And so I wanted to ask this question about when you look back and you think about your leadership style and what you've learned over the years, what specific challenges or opportunities have influenced your leadership style within the association world. 

Debra BenAvram  11:12
For me, I feel that every experience, every challenge that we each face as leaders, our leadership journeys, our philosophies, our understanding of ourselves and how to really amplify our strengths and own where we need to say it's not our bailiwick. To me, I think that I'm always doing that. So I could give you an example like COVID or a turnaround, which I've done several of. But ultimately, I think it's not always the big it feels in leadership, like it's these big, pivotal moments, but even how we respond in those big, pivotal moments is because of all of the small moments along the way that are how we build our philosophy. So my philosophies around silo lists, ideally organizations and staff empowerment and volunteer empowerment and transformation of culture that came from not one experience. It came from so many different things. Yeah,

KiKi L'Italien  12:19
I think that those challenges, they're what makes us, hopefully, stronger when we make it through it, when we get on the other side of it. But I think that it's not hard to say that. I'd say over the past five years, being an association leader has maybe had more than its fair share of challenges compared to just taking a look around the world and what's happening maybe a little bit more challenging. It's definitely, I think, for both of you to have been going through this leadership journey together, to be learning alongside each other, and then also to be winning these awards together. It's amazing that there are these sort of milestone moments that you've shared in leadership along the way. Lori, have you thought of a challenge that maybe, I don't know, helped you hone your leadership style or figure out who you are as a leader today?

Lori Anderson  13:11
That is continually evolving, right? It's not stagnant. I remember hearing things and those may be the start of a switch, right? You just hear even somebody ask you one question, like the career counselor back when I was very young, "What gets you mad?" The question that changed my life. The things I hear a top executive of the company, Freeman, I was at an event, and she asked to write down on a piece of paper to describe my organization's culture, and I was "oh my gosh. I don't know if I can." I know what I think it is, but I don't know what my team is that led a whole multi year journey into creating a culture statement that one little question. When I first started at ISA, there was a hesitancy of the board. The governance was pretty broken, and the board was not willing at the time to learn how to be a better board. There was one chair who I suggested, how about we go to a CEO symposium and just see if we can learn how to be better? And we sat in that room, and the light bulbs went off for him, that there is a better way to function as an organization, and that opened the window just a little. And I think about the big transformations I've done is when the window opens a little and you say that breeze is coming through, I want to bring on the wind, right? And you take little steps, and it results in that big transformation. I've heard other people say you should never be in an organization more than five years because you stagnate. At first, I listened to that and thought I was doing something wrong, and then I realized I need to listen to myself if I'm continually challenged. You. If I'm continually finding new growth, and I love who I work with, and I enjoy their company every day, and I appreciate and have the support of my board, Why limit myself to five years? It's been 20 years with the organization, and I'm never bored, and I always have challenges, and so I keep looking for these little windows. Now, if the window is constantly shut, then maybe I should look somewhere else, or that someone should look somewhere else. But if you always have that opportunity for a new breeze to come through and to ride on that breeze a little bit, then go for it. 

KiKi L'Italien  15:39
That's really fascinating. I'm thinking about how we're hearing you should be listening to others. You should be talking with others and learning from others, but maybe also knowing when you shouldn't listen to others and to listen to yourself too, not to forget that part. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you both had to do more about mentorship, and especially for young professionals, people who are maybe early in their careers, who are trying to figure out, yeah, this mentor, how do I find the right people? How do I find my group, my kitchen cabinet, and when they begin to seek out building that sort of that connection and that network. How would you advise them to go about fostering meaningful connections that can truly help them? Because I think at least in my situation, I would say in my experience, I've had to learn right because not everyone should be a part of that group, but you shouldn't listen to all of the voices. So Debra, I know you had shared a little bit earlier about how you found these different groups. So do you have any thoughts on this? 

Debra BenAvram  16:50
Yeah, I have definitely have thoughts around how to approach finding mentors. To me, the first place it starts with is introspection. What are you looking for yourself? So you're looking for an advisor who can tell you what to do when you don't know how. I'm not sure that always exists, but that might be more of a coach, an executive coach. Are you looking for someone to prop you up and help you develop? Are you looking for shared experiences, which is different from advice, but we can glean ideas which is really important. And you may be looking for all of those things, but your journey around them is really different. And Lori said, with her example, everyone's looking for your career journey, your mentorship path. It's yours, just because people talk all the time about aspiring CEOs and get a mentor to help you be CEO Well, you know, this job is for some people, not for everyone. You need to think about what you want to do and what are the things you need to build in your toolkit. And then, okay, so then who are the right types of people to be around to do that? And by the way, that's multi-directional. You have people reporting to you or within your organization who are different levels, who are amazing mentors, who you learn from all the time. You don't have to call someone and say, will you be my mentor? And let's match on an app here. There's lots of ways to engage and be mentor. I think that when we think about what that looks like, what we want from each group, each person, I would encourage emerging leaders to then prioritize, right? So for me, I really liked peer groups because I got a lot out of that. And I tell my team all the time, you have all the power put a note on ASAE Collaborate, and you will have more people than you know what to do with for a new peer group. But that is doable. Talk to people and ask them to find one or two. But the more clarity you have around what you're looking to learn, what experiences you're trying to be around, the types of leaders you want to be around that, frankly, are really different from you. When I call Lori with a problem, which I certainly do, I do not want her to tell me that I'm brilliant. I want her to give me some actual feedback. And I need that from my mentor. If that's what you want from your mentor? Get clarity if you call someone to be a one on one mentor for you, you meet someone a leader you admire that maybe shares a career path that you would like to explore, or has grown their position and stayed in the same position for a long time. What are you asking of them? Are you asking them to meet with you once a month and push you on something? What does that mean to you when that word needs something different to everyone? I think that whatever you do, get around people, one on one groups get around people where the interaction. That leaves you feeling like your bucket is fuller than when you arrived, and so is theirs, because those are the relationships that you're going to foster and invest your time in those experiences, and when it isn't right, I've been in peer groups where they're great people, but it's okay to say I got what I needed out of this experience from a mentorship perspective, and now I need to move on. I think as you do that, you'll build this cabinet of experts, of thought partners that you'll learn to count on over your career when you have different challenges. But it's not all things. To say, it's, I don't think one size fits all. And what leadership? 

Lori Anderson  20:46
Yeah, I agreed with Debra completely on this. And just to add on to that, you need to go into a peer group or a relationship, even if it's a one on one mentorship role, I tend to gear more toward peer groups. I don't know if one person would have everything I needed any given moment. So I have hundreds of mentors, because I can look around the room and say, I wish I had more of that, or that would be great to explore this way of leading. But very important, you need to give as much as you get. Because if you were in a peer group or a relationship, and you are just sucking out answers, and you're not stopping everything to help someone else. There's a level of trust that doesn't happen. I really try every time in my many groups, when a question comes by, I don't know the answer, but I know someone who may, and I connect them, because the true value of being in an association is that village, and it's unique. I don't know if many other professions that have this type of supported atmosphere, maybe because most of us aren't direct competitors, therefore we aren't at each other competitively. Deb's members are nothing like my members at all, and so we can share more, but I stop everything, and that includes with former employees who have reached out to me and say, I need a new change. I drop everything. I connect them with recruiters. I get my ear to the ground. I put things out to help them. And you have to give as much or even more than you take from any experience with a peer group.

KiKi L'Italien  22:26
So in hearing this again, I'm it's very affirming, because I think that anyone who's listening to this that says it's great, it's maybe they looked into having the right people around them. What I'm hearing is you evolve. You figure out what works. So don't fall in love with the idea of perfection, like you're gonna land with just the perfect five people that are going you're and you're all gonna elevate together. Maybe you do, but most of the time it's probably something more, like you try different things and you figure out your group that maybe ends up working, and it depends on what you're looking for. But help; help others too. Don't just focus on what you can get out of it. So that sounds like good relationship building advice too, not just for mentorship, but for life in general, right? 

Lori Anderson  23:15
100%. And sometimes, see, you're in a your group, and you're thinking, I'm not getting any value of this. Or you go to a conference and you're not getting any value. Sometimes that one sentence, that one little idea, can snowball when you get back to the office and your time away could be exponentially enhanced just by that one little germ of an ace of an idea.

KiKi L'Italien  23:40
I love this because you're talking about the crack in the window, and you're talking about the one little idea I get, the idea that you're paying a lot of attention for that moment of inspiration to hit, where you're able to take that and learn and grow. And I think that we can all learn something from that. That's a great approach. I want to shift gears and maybe talk a little bit about foresight. That's one of the things that it's a discipline that's become more and more important today, I think, because it's such an unpredictable environment and so Lori and Debra, how has practicing foresight impacted your approach to leadership, especially during moments of uncertainty?

Lori Anderson  24:23
We've developed at ISA a leadership meeting, which involves a board and three other elected steering committees. We call them, and we have an annual event in a January of every year that isn't about the current year. And I did that as purpose, because the budget's already set, the organizational plan, all of that set for that calendar year. Now we're meeting in January to do what to talk about, what next, not even the next year, but even two or three years from now. And sometimes there's themes to this meeting, this event, which started, oh, back in 2013 I guess, was the first one we did. It was just the hints being said about struggles finding workers that led to developing an entire workforce development program. And each of these events starts to germinate some thoughts on what are the next challenges that could be coming down the pike. We have used ASAE foresight works in this exercise. We have sometimes focused on particular themes. We bring in some keynote speakers that can help facilitate the long term. But I think it's the mindset that the meeting is not about the here and now. It's all about the future. We're in the next one in January of 25 we're talking about demographics, or maybe the importance of adding value graphics instead of demographics. And we're looking at trying to understand the values that are inherent in our stakeholders. We don't know what that's going to end up, but that will be long term. Like, what does that mean for 26, 27 and  29 and beyond? And that's how we've employed foresight. How it changes my leadership again, I think it's back to the same thing we've talked about. It's those little, teeny things, listening for the nuances and what I can do to challenge myself and to challenge the organization.

KiKi L'Italien  26:27
So for people who and Debra, I'm going to go to you next. For people who are listening to this and not watching it, you should just know that I was back here like clapping visibly. You can't hear it, but you could see it because I was so excited about hearing about the value graphics. There's some really great work out there by David Allison. He's the one that coming to our event. Yeah, he's remarkable. You want to follow up on that? Pick up that thread and Debra, let's talk about it. What is the roll of foresight for you?

Debra BenAvram  26:58
I'll pick up from where Lori left off. She gave some really great and I'll add from a leadership perspective, and one thing I think is really important is to remember that it is not your job to have all of the foresight. It is not your role. It is your role to make sure that the organization and the right people are having that conversation, and that can be very hard as we continue on our leadership journeys, to remember that our superpower isn't knowing how to do everything or about everything, it's knowing how to create the environments where the right things end up happening, and making sure that that's also the expectation of you for whoever it is that you report to that you're having that conversation. What are the expectations that might be for you with foresight, if you have deep subject matter expertise, that's going to be different than if you don't, but that conversation is really important. And then how you're leveraging your board. What's the board culture? Some boards don't love to have really big picture, pie in the sky conversations, and then your role in that leadership development journey for them is very different than if you are working with a board that has been doing that for a long time. For me, a tactic that I always employ, no matter what role I'm in, is sort of setting some North Stars like, what are the things that are for me really always going to be true, transparency, risk taking, possibilities, growth mindset, when I can bring those into the foresight conversation as a leader, those are my tools. I use those tools to hopefully open possibilities up for others. So an example for me would be as AABB explored the new frontier of bio therapies, which we're really positioning AABB in the same thread from lorries of workforce development, we were able to problem spot what's a problem in the industry that's no one's going to have solved in three years, when we would come out with a solution, and we ended up delivering the first in field credential. We stood up an entire credentialing program and delivered that, but we wouldn't have done that if we weren't talking about what's coming down the pike. We have to be able to see around corners, and that's a skill set that we don't all have, and that our teams, our staff and our leaders don't always have. So focusing on how we develop that create environments for people to learn those skills and ASAE foresight works is a really fantastic tool. 

KiKi L'Italien  29:45
Speaking of looking around corners and all of that, what I'm hearing is that you both have expressed that being adaptable, I'm paraphrasing, but being adaptable, being flexible. So recognizing where your resources are that may not originate with you, that you don't have to have all of the answers yourself, but to look around for those opportunities or those insights that you can take to help guide and lead and maybe open up those conversations that will help to get the organization into the direction it needs to go in. We can't have a conversation about women and leadership without addressing this Glass Cliff phenomenon. And for those who aren't familiar with that, many women find themselves promoted to these high stakes roles during times of crisis, and this is called the Glass Cliff phenomenon, where it's like, oh, you're thrust into this position of authority, and now you need to solve all of these problems. And for many women, when they find themselves in this role, it's shocking. I don't know anyone who is just thank you for giving me this chance to feel like I'm in a precarious situation. Have either of you felt this or faced this challenge?

Lori Anderson  31:04
I was by my first boss in the association world, who I admire greatly, and he was the first person I invited to come to the awards ceremony. He's long retired and doesn't live around here anymore, but he meant so much to me because he really supported me. He also welcomed my inquiries into how to improve myself. For example, it was a light bulb moment when I was told we need an international program Lori, create one. I'm simplifying it. And this is a pretty big industry. What? But I realized that I didn't need to have the answers. But if I could help a committee succeed, then all of a sudden, everything grows. And so I asked my boss, I went, I would like to take meeting facilitation training, and here's a course, can you send me up to Boston for a week? And he said, Yes. And from that moment, it was like this sliding door moment, because I was struggling. I didn't know how to keep things going, I didn't know what to do, and I gained skills into learning that it wasn't me who needs the answers, but I could learn how to ask the right questions to get a group to figure it out, and all of a sudden, the groups I was now assigned more and more groups to lead, that they were succeeding, and that not only helped the organization succeed, it helped My career succeed. And I still employ that same philosophy to where I am. Now it's I don't have the answers, but if I can help in any way to ask the right questions to get to an answer, then we're all in a better place.

KiKi L'Italien  32:55
That's so interesting. Something you said, it made me think about an issue that I just came across with the organization that I work with, and that is that I think that something that you did there, not only did you recognize that you didn't need to have all the answers yourself and that you could explore, but a committee could help, but you also sought training. You looked for training, and you proactively went out and said, Ah, here is the training I could use. And then you went about figuring out if you could get it. And it's fascinating, because the organization I work with just recently, the CEO came up and said, we have this budget for training, but no one's asking for additional training like they people weren't coming, proactively going and saying, we need this. And I think it's really interesting that here you have listeners, here you have someone who is an award winning leader, who is saying, I realized that I needed this additional training, and you weren't afraid, she wasn't afraid to go after it. So that's something that I thought was interesting, that you shared there, that I think is a differentiator, maybe for some people who been asked to do this thing, and I don't know how to do it, it's maybe looking around, yeah, to see what's around you. But also, what do I need to learn? What do I need to do? 

Lori Anderson  34:21
And I still do this,  KiKi. In 2023 I was stuck. I didn't know how to get out of my rut. I sought an executive coach, and I sought one that could basically slap me a little bit get me out of my rut, not somebody who is warm and fuzzy, but somebody who could really push my comfort zones. And I've used coaches throughout my career in various parts of my career, and I just needed one. So yes, back way ages ago, I sought out help in learning how to be a better meeting facilitator, but I still do that to this day. 

KiKi L'Italien  34:56
Oh, good. That's so good. How about you, Debra? Have you worked with coaches? Have you gone out and gone after those additional training moments?

Debra BenAvram  35:05
Absolutely, I've worked with coaches for a long time, and knowing what you want out of that relationship, and Lori said she want to kick in the pants, so that's going to help you find the right coach for me as well. Training for me, one of the things more recently that I've been working on is getting exposure to the business world outside of association. So I joined an organization called YPO, which is a young professional organization, CEOs, global CEO organization, very few non profits and associations. That's giving me a completely different opportunity to develop new skills and exposure to new types of businesses, because we all know associations are businesses. It's our tax status that we benefit from, but the end of the day, the numbers do have to add up. So I knew that was exposure that I need, because I know the association space. Where do I take it next in this very fast changing world? I think when we're put into a new opportunity, there's a crisis happening, and we feel this weight as leaders, that someone has trusted us, an organization has trusted us, our boss has trusted us to solve the problem or to find the solution, and we fall into this trap. And I think a lot of female leaders definitely fall into this trap of thinking that being the champion for the solution means being alone and being the only one who can do and to both strategically think and do and be the answer. And sometimes we put that on ourselves. Sometimes it's put upon us, to be honest, but sometimes we put that on ourselves. When I think about those moments when I've asked someone in a crisis to take something on, and when it's been a part of my own experience, I'm thinking about building transparency, which I share is one of my North Stars of transparency and being clear on communication along the way, celebrating small wins. Don't wait until the end to find out. Like your one ends like glory. Just shared how she was talking along the way. Can I do this? Can I you're sharing your thought pattern, so your leadership, your excellence, what you bring, don't wait till the end, the end and outcome of the New International Strategy, which was what you were asked to do in the example you gave Lori, make sure that you're exposing whoever you're talking to with your thinking, How do you think? How are you showing that you're expanding? What are the questions you're asking to look outside the particular area of your portfolio, to connect the dots to other areas of the business and to other aspects of how the business connects to the broader world around you. When you give people the opportunity to see have a window into your brain that lets them engage, that brings intellectual curiosity from them, and you're having conversations along the way. Something I'm not strong in is making sure to celebrate strong wins. I know about myself I'm like, three years from now already, I'm excited about the win, but my brain's moved on, so making sure that I'm communicating those small wins, and making sure that you're adjusting your plans, your experience based on your new knowledge, the skills you're developing, but also the feedback that you're getting. In other words, don't put it on yourself to be alone. Let somebody tell you're alone, but until they tell you're alone, figure out how to engage others communicate really effectively and share what you need to share, to highlight what you're doing, and highlight where you need others to plug in. 

KiKi L'Italien  38:57
Wow. This is like a master class in leadership, because Debra, that is a growing edge for me that I have to work on. This celebrating the wins, but showing that thinking along the way so other people can learn, celebrate, understand and believe in and be part of your parade, versus like watching from the side and It being some big mystery, this window into your brain approach so important to be able to communicate like that, so that other people can buy in along the way. And I think that's such a great point. I think of it is showing your work. I was always getting in trouble in school for not showing my work. I had to, and I'm like, oh, but they have to write it out. And I think that's something that, even to this day, it's, yeah, show your work, let other people in on it, because, hey, guess what? Maybe they can contribute, or maybe they can join your parade and get excited about the things that you're doing. It's not something to be fearful of, which I think is what holds me back. Sometimes, some. Pick apart my ideas and all of this, but it's something where it's an opportunity, right? And it's only something that can help build trust. So that's a great point. I have one more question. I could really, honestly, I think, talk to you both for a long time, but I have one more question that has to do with just being a leader. It has its own set of demands. I think we've all decided a long time ago that there is no balance with life, right? You're just always trying to figure out your best, but it's challenging when you're trying to do all of these things beyond the career skills, what areas of personal growth for you have been essential to your success and your resilience as leaders. Are there other areas of your life where it's not just going out and getting say that training and facilitation or working with committees or what have you, or learning about what it's like to be entrepreneurial and that kind of thing, but is there something in your own personal growth outside of those things, directly impacting your skills at work, that you look at, that helps you, that you find, that is essential to your success. 

Lori Anderson  41:09
It's a mindfulness journey for me. I have gone to mindful retreats. I started meditating many years ago. I'm grateful to say it's many years ago now, and 2007 I went through a cancer journey. So I'm a breast cancer survivor, and what they don't tell you when you go through it is the hardest part mentally, is after you go through all the treatments, because then you imagine that every hangnail and every thing is possibly another round of it, right? And in this process, I discovered the importance of mine. I read books I had Tolle's "Power of Now," and some other books by various monks, etc, that more appreciate the present moment and not constantly imagine what's next, because what you imagine is that it's imagination. It's not real, and that's a continuous process, and that is a journey we are all on to various degree, and you never complete it. You never win it. And being comfortable with the moment at hand is maybe the biggest challenge we could ever face. 

Debra BenAvram  42:25
Beautiful.  I wish I could tell you I had the kind of mindfulness practice that Lori has developed and that I admire so much I I'm a little bit more of a work in progress that maybe I care to met, but I think that for me, over the course of my career that I've ebbed and flowed and COVID really helped me open my eyes to making good choices about how I decide to spend my time and how I decide to spend my discretionary time. And we could go to dinner with an ASAE colleague every other night. We can go to everything we get invited to, and we can, I can, I'll own the statement, then really end up not getting much out of any of those experiences. So what I've tried to do in my own practice, in my own life, is really be intentional about how I'm spending my time and how I want to show up for myself and for others. How does that translate? It translates into I've said no to some things, and I've stepped back from some things that maybe I gave to maybe I did that had run their course, and I've stepped up into other things that have really been a bigger part of what I want to do. So some of those are making sure to spend time or travel with my son, who's an international athlete. So that's one on one time when I can't always work having that special time. We have dinner as a family every night. That's hard to do, I know, but that's what happens in the BenAvram house. Our son's 21. He's a college now, but we still do that with our daughter, and then making choices around spirituality and around the things that really, from a volunteer perspective, make a difference. For me, my family supports an orphanage in eastern Uganda that helps girls who would otherwise be on the street and double down on that and a few other really important issues that for me fill my bucket, even though their time, that allow me to use the skills I have built in my career as a leader, but allow me to get something very different out of that, and then bring that back to my family. So I'm still on that journey, but I think I'm getting much better at choosing the things that from a time perspective, I both give and have a meaningful ROI in whatever it is for me that I decide that needs to be.

KiKi L'Italien  45:01
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I can't tell you both how much I it was just such a pleasure to speak with both of you today, and I've learned something, and I know that the listeners are going to learn something too. So thank you both for sharing your wisdom and your insights.

Debra BenAvram  45:20
Thank you so much, KiKi and Lori, always a pleasure. Thank you.

Lori Anderson  45:25
I can't wait to share the stage with you in March. It's so exciting. And thank you, KiKi, for this opportunity. 

KiKi L'Italien  45:31
So I just want to say to our listeners, thank you for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the associations now podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. For even more association goodness, visit associationsnow.com, ASAE, of course. And then if my voice didn't completely rattle your cage, you might want to check out my regular podcast, the Association Chat podcast, which you can find over on associationchat.com, until next time everyone, stay true to your vision, keep sharing your stories and remember every conversation offers a chance for change you.