Associations NOW Presents

Beyond the Buzz: How AI Can Empower Every Association

In celebration of National Hispanic Heritage Month, guest host Camille Sanders, CAE, director of chapter operations and programs at ISACA and host of LeadHERship Bytes, sits down with Carlos Cardenas, CAE, AAiP, senior strategic advisor at DelCor and co-founder of Association Latinos, for a forward-thinking discussion on the future of AI in associations. Carlos shares how his personal journey with AI began during retirement planning and evolved into a passion for helping associations—especially smaller ones—use AI strategically to thrive. The conversation explores practical concepts like the “quarterback agent” for task management, the value of experiential learning, and aligning AI tools with real business goals. Together, they highlight how associations can embrace AI innovation while ensuring inclusivity and equity for Latinx members and beyond.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/rw3813NLPe4
This episode is sponsored by the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
Camille Sanders: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm your host today, Camille Sanders. In addition to my role as director of chapter operations and programs at ISACA, I also host LeadHERship Bytes, an independent podcast highlighting the career and personal journeys of inspiring women across industries.
You can find it on any major podcast platform. Now, before we dive in, we would like to thank this episode sponsor the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau Now. Let's get into the really fun stuff. I'm very excited for today's conversation where we're talking about the future of AI in associations with Carlos [00:01:00] Cardenas, the senior strategic advisor at DelCor, and a co-founder of Association Latinos.
Welcome, Carlos. 
Carlos Cardenas: Hi Camille. How are you? Thanks for having me. 
Camille Sanders: You are very welcome. We're excited to talk with you today. So I just want to be fully transparent with our audience that I know Carlos personally and I know about. Some of your exciting writings and the things that you've been doing in terms of educating associations around experimentation and adaptation of ai.
And I know that journey started for you with something really personal around your retirement planning, and that's a really unusual journey. That's not where most of us start. So can you talk to us a little bit about what sparked that idea for you? 
Carlos Cardenas: Sure. No, I will say just like everybody else, right?
October, 2022, OpenAI dropped chat GPT version 3.0, [00:02:00] and it shook the world. It shocked the world, and so everybody started to experiment and say, how does this relate to me? How can I use this? How can I leverage it? I wrote a LinkedIn article in January talking about the directions that it could go. One of 'em was a travel advisor, one of 'em was a strategic advisor.
A couple other things as well. Fast forward a couple years, right? And so I'm, I'm relatively young, I won't say my age, but I like to think about the future. I like to think about financial independence, not necessarily retirement, but financial independence. And so I started to go down the road of what does retirement, or what does financial independence look like for me?
And you've got your traditional 401k in the workplace and you've got your employer match. Outside of that, you might do Roth IRAs, you might dabble in crypto, you might have some other investment vehicles, and so I do a lot of the work myself. And so [00:03:00] I look at websites, I look at market trends, but I'm like, how can I leverage some of these tools to help me so I don't have to do a lot of the heavy lifting?
I like to experiment. I downloaded open source models of my own. I purchased an NVIDIA graphics card. I've got that installed on my home desktop computer. But I run these models and experiment with them, and I use generative I to help me build agents. So I can have one agent that does it all, and you might get to that later on, but I felt I wanted to build an ecosystem of agents to help me with these various aspects.
So what I've been able to do so far in terms of retirement or financial independence is build an agent. I'll say it's probably 70% of the way done, but it goes to the marketplace. It looks at the s and p 500, and it comes back and it gives me that information, and then it builds a dashboard for me. So I can look at my financial portfolio and I can have it send me emails.
[00:04:00] And so basically it's my assistant to say, how am I doing? The market took a downturn, or it's doing, it's on fire, right? What does that mean? What does my five year-, what does my nine year-outlook look like? Do I need to make adjustments in my 401k? So that's kind of surface level. We could talk 60 minutes about this, but I'll stop there.
Camille Sanders: Yeah. No, I love that and I thank you for that example because I think it's a really practical example to show how people can use AI in our personal lives, right? To help us with future planning. And I, for one, had never thought about that. So thank you. Thank you again for that, and I think it leads nicely into something bigger.
That you've talked about in a recent article that you wrote and published, you talked about the fact that AI isn't at this point really about innovation, it's more about survival, especially for smaller [00:05:00] associations, and you even called it this moment, a breaking point for associations, and that's a powerful.
Really strong message and I'm curious about what makes you feel that sense of urgency right now? 
Carlos Cardenas: I think it's clear if you follow investments, if you follow the big, the tech bros, so to speak, right? In terms of what they're doing. Generative AI is not going anywhere. People use it on a personal level and they've been able to multiply their cap capabilities.
But when you go to the association level for us, you look at association membership and, and I'll say for ASAE membership, since we're on this podcast, I believe something around 80% of all associations, and I don't know if they're specific to ASAE, but they're small staff associations. Their annual revenues are somewhere between, uh, I'll say a million or [00:06:00] less.
And that's a wide range. So people wear multiple hats. And so now you've got, you're bogged down into the tactical things. You don't have opportunities to take that hat off and be more strategic. And so administrative overhead comes front and center and, and I think these agent AIs or these AI systems perfect candidate to be able to offload some of those administrative burdens, so to speak, to free you up for the more strategic aspects of it.
And so that's why I feel like it is critical. It's critical now, right? People are stuck in the mud, so to speak, and maybe I see it as a consultant. Their technology posture is not where it needs to be, and so I feel like this is a perfect opportunity for leadership boards to be looking at these technologies to say, how do we leverage it in the workplace?
Again, we can use it on a personal [00:07:00] level, but. How do we bring that into the workplace and bring ourselves into the future? How do we experiment? How do we build that culture of learning? 
Camille Sanders: Yeah. 
Carlos Cardenas: So again, that surface level answer, but that's how I thought about this. 
Camille Sanders: That's really good. And in that same piece, you introduced this concept of a quarterback agent, which I think is really timely.
It's football season, and I liked the concept because again, it makes AI feel more approachable. Can you break that down a little bit for us and talk about what exactly is a quarterback agent? And why is orchestration so much more important than just having this one catchall tool? 
Carlos Cardenas: I'll start from the model perspective, and you've got your chat GPT version 5.0.
You've got from Anthropic, you've got cloud version 4.0, 4.1. You've got these multiple [00:08:00] flavors that try to do it all. If you look at the open source market, you've got specialized models, more lightweight models, maybe from an energy standpoint. They do not consume as much energy. They do not need as much computation, and so rather than thinking about one person, one agent to do it all, I like to distribute that workload and think about specialty agents, and I can have multiple specialty agents.
If I'm managing, I'm at the center of them all and managing them all. I feel like I'm just perpetuating and repeating a current problem. And so therein comes the orchestrator or quarterback agent. The, it's, think of it as a digital twin, a mirror of you that you're trying to train this particular model, and that quarterback agent can work with the other one.
So let me give you an example. Now, let's just say you've got a project, project a, we'll call it. You maybe have a [00:09:00] statement of work or project deliverables, and so you could have a specialized project manager agent that can think about all of the deliverables that need to happen. Some of the project outcomes, some of the timelines.
You might have a business analyst agent where you feed some of the brick requirements from. Think of your discovery meetings. Think of a communications agent that is specialized in outreach. Drafting emails and writing letters and drafting RFPs and writing executive summaries. And so they each have their own specialty and the quarterback agent essentially activates them all.
Doesn't have to be linear, right? It could be like non-sequential, but it can say, Hey, project manager, I need you to tap into Microsoft Project to create X, Y, Z task communications. You take that output as input. Draft a letter to the client or to the internal executive leadership team. So you can see how [00:10:00] the coordination aspect of it frees you up.
Obviously there's always a human component to it where you have to have that human oversight, but conceptually, I think as the tools and the technology evolve, so too, do organizations have to evolve to figure out how do I leverage this? And I think this is one aspect in terms of Agentic AI that we're gonna hear more and more about.
Camille Sanders: Yeah. So if an association leader had to just start with one of all the agents that you described as possible, which one do you think gives the most impact right away and why? 
Carlos Cardenas: Yeah. I'll say before you even go to the agents, right? Start with yourself, make sure that you're experimenting and learning. And so I think of a series of concentric circles.
With you at the center. And then I think once you master that or get comfortable with it, you can go to that next layer. And that might be the team, eventually you'll get to the organization. But I [00:11:00] think it's important to take a step back and think about what is our organization, what is the mission, and what is the vision?
What are our business goals? Instead of chasing a bright and shiny tool, and you just leave the stuff that you just bought and you put it on the shelf. What do I, what problems am I trying to solve? Gotta make sure that you align it to the business goals. Otherwise you're just tinkering and experimenting on a personal level.
That's good. On an organizational level, I think that's detrimental to the organization. There's gotta be some experimentation, but make sure it's focused experimentation. Make sure you have some concrete examples or deliverables that you know you want your team. I think if you can do that. And the tasks you find are repetitive in nature, instead of prompting each and every time to do this, I think that brings the use case for an agent to help you.
And so again, I think start with that concept. Make use of that first agent. I can't [00:12:00] tell you which one makes the most sense at in the beginning, but I feel if once you understand that and you leverage it, and then you realize those outcomes, proof of concept, then move on to the next one. It is a process.
Yeah. You can't just jump to Step Z and say, let me get a quarterback agent without doing the other ones. 
Camille Sanders: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Now, one thing that. I love about your writings and your guidance on this is that you have really been adamant that associations not get caught up in the hype, and you just alluded to that.
Really tying things back to business goals and back to strategy for leaders who might be feeling FOMO, that fear of missing out. On the big push around AI right now, how would they really know where to start without just chasing the shiny new thing that's happening? 
Carlos Cardenas: Yeah, I would [00:13:00] say start somewhere.
You've gotta take that first step. I think. Don't let fear prevent you from taking that first step. I can tell you to use a specific tool, but I don't think we wanna do that. I think find a tool that speaks to you. Start to experiment with it, start to learn from it, and then I think you'll get more comfortable with the tool, and then I feel like eventually you'll realize what the capabilities are.
Obviously with some training, you've gotta always be learning, because this tool constantly changes and evolves. Technology is moving at a breakthrough speed. So rather than be overwhelmed with trying to chase each and everything, try to get good at a core three concepts. Try to get good at aligning it to your specific role.
Maybe you're a marketer. Maybe you need help with social media posts. Maybe you're a tinkerer, a creator and experimenter, and you need an ideation partner. Try [00:14:00] to focus on some of those things, and then I think you'll realize what the capabilities are and then harness those capabilities. Towards the business outcomes.
Sitting on the sidelines at this point is not an option. And if you are a leader, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and say, am I stifling? Not just the innovation, but the advancement of my association, my organization? And most times you won't see it, right? If you are the problem and lean on your team, have conversations, have open and honest and frank conversations.
I feel like the more you can bounce ideas from your team and off of your team, the more that you can help shape and think about the direction that your organization needs to be going in. Ultimately, I think we all need to dip our toes into generative AI in one form or another. I know we have different on-ramps, whether you have a policy or not inside the organization, guess what?
Your [00:15:00] teams are using the tool. At work, at home, they probably know more than you do. If you're an advanced user, you probably know a little bit more, but I think sitting on the sidelines, it's just not an option. At this point. You do not wanna be left behind and three years later, finally come to the realization, oh, how do we leverage this?
You'll be behind at that point. 
Camille Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. I very much agree with that. And speaking of just. Moving forward and thinking forward. You have developed this very interesting concept called Innovation by parts, which you've also trademarked and. I think it's amazing how that frames AI as something that's both incremental and manageable and for smaller associations, which you've alluded to.
And I think honestly, this might be practical for even medium and large associations that have not yet [00:16:00] leaned into adapting the technology. How can they apply the innovations by parts approach in a low risk and practical way? 
Carlos Cardenas: I'll give you a little bit of background in terms of the genesis of innovation by parts.
And so I go back to calculus two. Differential calculus, and so integration by parts was the concept where you take trigonometric functions as an example, and sometimes you're multiplying them and sometimes you're integrating them and it's so complex, right? And you'll probably fill pages and pages with these equations.
But there is a tool called. Integration by parts where it lets you break that down. It lets you simplify these things into additional variables to integrate that a little bit more. That's one part of it. The other part is I'm hyper visual. If I could turn my camera, you'll probably, you'll see a whiteboard on this side here.
I've got an extensive series of whiteboards, so I'm visual. I feel like if you are trying [00:17:00] to articulate, I mean, name your concept, if it's a project, if it's a mission, if it's a vision, I can talk to you about it. The message may get warped depending on how you receive it, but if we're looking at a picture and we're looking at a diagram, then we could walk through that diagram and talk through it, and I can provide you more clarity.
Maybe I'm not gifted at the gift of gab, but I think I've been blessed with being able to articulate visually. So that's the genesis of it. Behind that is you've got this complex idea, which can be daunting to some people. Look at any project, right? Whether it's an AMS implementation, sometimes you're just like, whoa, there are too many pieces to this.
But if you can break it down into smaller pieces and analyze and evaluate, then I feel like it's less daunting. It's more approachable. You can plan around those things. You can set milestones. So I guess in simple terms with maybe [00:18:00] the long-winded answer to your question, that is innovation by parts. How can organizations use it?
Go to the whiteboard. Don't assume that people understand what you're talking about. You know, whatever that project is, if you can draw it and you can understand it, then I feel like you know what you're talking about. And if you know what you're talking about in your organization, your team would be able to see your vision as well.
And don't just draw it once and look at it once, but use it as a visual tool, visual aid. As you progress along that project timeline, 
Ad Read: Let's take a quick break for a word from our episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Atlanta is a leading convention city providing an exceptional environment for a wide range of events, meetings, and trade shows.
The destination strength lies in its highly accessible and walkable convention district, which is [00:19:00] seamlessly integrated with its entertainment district, home to the world's number one airport, Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta International Airport, and a substantial inventory of more than 113,000 hotel rooms in the metro region.
The city is well equipped to accommodate small and large scale gatherings. In Atlanta, your success is our top priority. Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau and our close-knit hospitality community, don't just serve as a resource, we become an extension of your team. For more information, visit discover atlanta.com.
Camille Sanders: And so now Carlos, I want to shift gears. And look a little bit down the road. If associations get this right five years from now, what do you [00:20:00] think the workplace will look like? And on a personal note, what excites you most about that future? 
Carlos Cardenas: I had the privilege of being the immediate past chair of the tech council last year.
We were talking about what does the IT team of the future look like? So we had a bunch of ideas in terms of what are the skill sets, what are the psychological profiles that an IT leader, but IT team members need? And the missing piece was agents, again, as agentic AI comes into the picture, how can it not be part of the future as these tools become more available and readily accessible?
Again, it's natural language processing, and so it's very accessible. You don't have to be super techy. How can that not be part of it? And so again, from the administrative overhead aspect of it, even on the board perspective in terms of, you know, strategic planning, I still hear stories [00:21:00] where boards are expected to look at 20, 30 page documents to prepare for a board meeting.
So how can you leverage these tools to be able to evaluate, analyze, and synthesize complexity? Into more simple terms. And so the board members can focus on strategy from a volunteer perspective. Associations, you know, manage various committees. I'll say you're taking meeting minutes and I think those are the simple ones.
I think we're past that part of. But in terms of keeping people organized, people are busy, right? If they're volunteering, they've got a full-time job, they've got a family, how can we lean on some of these tools? To help us with the repetitive, to help us with the mundane, to help us prepare for our next meeting, to help us look back and reflect on previous meetings, to help us look for trends and say where are we going?
Where did we come from? Are we aligning with the three year strategic plan that we created a couple years ago? Do we need to [00:22:00] pivot? Times are changing, do a landscape assessment. So all of these different tools, and even from an internal perspective, again, if I can go back to the small staff. You're wearing multiple hats.
Maybe you don't have the budget to get a technology leader. In comes your agents, and I'm not saying they're commercial off the shelf, but you might be able to train it best practices Microsoft documentation if you're a Microsoft shop. But I feel like it can augment your staff and the capabilities and maybe you don't fall behind on technology.
Maybe you can stay ahead to some extent of that technology curve. But it's a competitive advantage, and so if you don't take advantage of it, your competitor will. And what does that mean for the future of your business, your organization? 
Camille Sanders: Oh, Sage advice. Sage advice there. Thank you Carlos. And I have one more question for you.
Since it's National Hispanic Heritage Month, [00:23:00] I wanna close on what I think is a really important point in this conversation, and that's that AI systems are only as good as the data. They're trained on how can associations ensure that Latinx perspectives and experiences are included so that AI outcomes are both equitable and inclusive for everyone?
Carlos Cardenas: Great question, Camille. Thank you. As I think about Hispanic Heritage Month and how associations. Can make sure they're inclusive and think about the bias of these large language models are inclusive of their Latino members, Latinx members. Some of the things that they can do, uh, and maybe I'll take a step back and say again, bias is relative.
Bias is a reflection of humanity. If you think about public libraries, they're full of bias at one point or another throughout the history of time. But people have written their perspectives. Those [00:24:00] are, think about it. Some of the models are trained on some of that data. Maybe they've been transcribed and they're digitized now, but these large language models, you'll scrape these sites and scrape these articles, and they're trained on that.
What associations can do to make sure that Latino voices are heard are accurate. You cannot take the human out of the equation. So I give an example of let's say you want to cater a Hispanic heritage marketing campaign and you wanna make sure you have an authentic voice. You've got some choices to make.
There's Spanish, the dialect, the language itself, but there are different dialects. Are you speaking to Mexican, Spanish, Argentinian, Spaniard. So I feel like it is incumbent upon the association. To be that filter to make sure that you are speaking directly to your audience. Maybe you know the differences in terms of dialect of your members, and maybe you do some extra member segmentation.[00:25:00] 
I am privileged to be the incoming board president for Association Latinos. We're a local nonprofit 501(c)(3) here in Chicago. We're about four and a half years old, and so I think about exactly what I was talking about earlier. Small staff associations. Wearing multiple hats. How do we get rid of the administrative overhead?
How do we have these tools augment? And so as I assume the role, I want to incorporate some of these tools, some of these agents, some of the training, some of the upskilling into the work that we do as an organization. I think about where we are as a small nonprofit in the, I'll say ecosystem or economy of associations in general.
We're small, we've gotta outcompete, we've gotta out hustle. And so I look at these tools as a competitive advantage. I also look at it as an opportunity to train our volunteer committees, our board, [00:26:00] so that they can learn some of these tools, not just to deliver to our community, but they can take back into their own workplaces.
So if I can make 'em a stronger leader, and if I can. Get them to leverage these tools. I know that they'll go back to their organization, to their association, to their leadership roles. They're going to incorporate some of these tools and inherently make their association a stronger association.
Camille Sanders: Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you so much Carlos, and this has been such a really insightful conversation, and I do just wanna thank you for sharing your perspective and really giving us a roadmap. On how associations can approach AI with purpose now and in the future. And also a special thank you to our listeners and viewers for tuning into Associations NOW Presents.
Each month, we bring you the conversations that are shaping associations today, [00:27:00] highlighting the challenges, the opportunities, and the real impact. That our work has on the economy, the U.S. and even the world. And a special thank you again to our episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau.
To learn more about planning your next event in Atlanta, please visit discoveratlanta.com. And be sure to subscribe to associations now presents on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And for more stories and insights, visit us anytime at associationsnow.com.

The Next Chapter: What's Ahead for Future-Ready Associations

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Sharon Pare, director of partnerships at HighRoad Solutions and co-host of the Rethink Association Podcast, is joined by two dynamic leaders: Christina Lewellen, MBA, FASAE, CAE, CEO of the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools, and Preet Bassi, CAE, CEO of the Center for Public Safety Excellence. Together, they explore how associations can thrive in an era defined by disruption and opportunity. Drawing on new themes highlighted in the upcoming fifth edition of the Professional Practices in Association Management, the conversation dives into the rising importance of governance and trust, building human-centered workplaces, and the skills association leaders need for the future. Lewellen and Bassi also share insights on the role of AI, the next wave of professional development, and how associations can adapt to create resilient, attractive, and future-ready organizations.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/V_j94oIM_IM
This episode is sponsored by the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
ASAE_ep14
Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. Before we begin, we would like to thank this episode's sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. I'm Sharon Pare, director of partnerships at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot Agency “associafying” the way associations go to market with, well, their marketing.
I'm also the co-host of our monthly podcast, Rethink Association, where we talk about how to reimagine the way you association, which is the perfect lead in to today's discussion. So enough about me. Today, we're excited to welcome Christina Lewellen, CEO of the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools, and Preet Bassi, CEO of the Center for Public Safety Excellence.
Welcome to the show, Christina and Preet. Hey, good afternoon. Thank you, Sharon. Thanks so much for having us. Absolutely. Welcome to the show. [00:01:00] Before we get to introductions, I'd like to level set before we get into it. On this podcast today, we'll be talking about the future of associations, evolution, innovation, and leading through change.
We're also gonna talk about some of the new themes in the fifth edition of the Professional Practices and Association Management book, but we'll talk about some of the insights that challenge business as usual. And also this podcast is for you if you're leading a small but mighty team like Christina is, or a schmedium association, like Preet likes to call it, a national organization.
Or if you're simply just curious, there are some pop tracks in this podcast that you don't wanna miss. Preet and Christina are two leaders bringing deep experience in the field and fresh thinking on where associations are headed next. Well, they certainly need no introduction. I'm excited to give them the floor for a quick hello.
So we'll start with you, Christina.
Christina Lewellen: Hello everyone. I'm Christina Luwellen and I am the president and CEO of ATLIS. As you mentioned, [00:02:00] ATLIS is technology leaders in independent schools, which basically means that we are CIOs and tech teams, tech directors that serve private K 12 schools primarily in the states.
And we are growing really fast. We're a relatively young organization, about 10 years old. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary, but we are growing between 30 and 35% year over year, so we're definitely adding. Lots of new schools to our community every year. 
Preet Bassi: Hi everyone. I'm Preet Bassi, the CEO for the Center for Public Safety Excellence.
Been in that role. It'll be 11 years this September, and our organization has gone through a fix it phase and also a grow it phase, and we're in our grow it phase right now. We work with fire departments all around the world, helping them and the professionals that work in those fire departments establish continuous improvement methods to make sure that they're serving their communities better.
Sharon Pare: That's amazing. I'm really excited for today's conversation. And just from what you said, [00:03:00] Christina, you're at a newer association being there for about 10 years, and then Preet, you've been at your organization for 11 years, so I think that's amazing. Today we'll be chatting on topics we're all grappling in the space, so without further ado, let's jump in.
So associations built around people, knowledge and exchange, creating a collective knowledge. I know you've both contributed to shaping where associations are headed. Christina, let's start with you. What do you think will be foundational in the next era? 
Christina Lewellen: As we think about that, I like to boil things down in terms of associations and what they are, and I love this very simplistic way of thinking about it that Peggy Hoffman offers us, which is that the formula's pretty simple.
Associations are simply a combination of content. Community, and I feel like that is likely to remain the foundation of associations, but how we build on that foundation is probably going to have to change. There's a couple ways that I envision this happening, one for sure is that I [00:04:00] think that how we redefine and evolve the.
Workplace of associations will likely become foundational to how associations succeed. We have great opportunities there, but I also think that a lot of associations have some governance cleanup to do, and that is something that will really amplify this idea of the foundation being content and community.
Because if organizations are struggling to either clean up their components or wrestle with some unhealthy governance practices that have gotten into the mix, it's tough to stay really true to the mission and to deliver on that value proposition of content and community. So there's some opportunities there for sure, and I think that we'll continue to unpack that as this conversation goes along.
Sharon Pare: Preet, is there anything you'd like to add or something shifting even more dramatically?
Preet Bassi: I completely agree with the content and community comment. I would add connection to that, how we bring it together. [00:05:00] But my perspective on associations and CPSE is 28 years old, and about eight years ago, right as we were becoming a true adult at 21, we had a conversation in our board meeting about needing to self disrupt. If we were Blockbuster, we needed to figure out how to be Netflix, not have some other Netflix come in and overtake our market. Historically, associations haven't needed to worry about competition, startups, mergers, acquisitions, bankruptcy, right? Those are common terms that we think about in the private space, but not in associations.
But if you look around over the last five, 10 years, there have been associations that have started up because they did not feel. They had a home, they had a voice, they had a space. You've seen associations that unfortunately have dwindled, those that have been friendly, merged, or perhaps hostile takeover bought out.
And [00:06:00] in looking at that, some of the things that we've been trying to do at CPSE is. How do we diversify who we are, how we're formatted to make sure that we're very agile and we're adapting as those societal, technological, economic, environmental, political changes come in. We've launched a subsidiary, we've started a new program.
We are incubating an association. Those would be words that you typically would hear, once again, in the private sector, but you wouldn't hear for associations. I think that the time has come for associations to not take their membership market for granted and make sure that they're scanning the entire market and how they best conserve it.
Sharon Pare: Yeah, that's great. Preet, and being on the industry partner side of things, we've seen that, of course, in the association side and seeing some of these hostile takeovers, if you will, or some of these mergers. But I'm seeing it on the industry partner side too. Almost on the monthly, maybe on the weekly, you hear some new news of [00:07:00] some of these larger conglomerates in our for-profit side of our association business, the industry partners respectively, where they're doing these mergers and acquisitions and they're creating this monolithic corporation, if you will, within our own space.
So this brings me into my next question. What do you think will fade or transform in terms of roles and skills and the futurescape of associations? 
Preet Bassi: I believe that we'll have a few doer roles that consist and event coordination. We have an amazing staff member that makes sure that the sponsor booths are set up and all the way a few of those will stick, but those that have historically been in thinker roles.
If they can grow that particular skillset, I see that as a kind of a skillset that is going to shift, whether it's because you're gonna do some automation through AI or even some outsourcing of things that are related to your [00:08:00] mission, but not core to the mission and just really don't need to do it. And it's interesting.
InCPSE, we do outsource a lot of core back of house tasks: finance, IT, legal. And thank God for partners in the private space that work with associations specifically on it, on legal. We are also thinking about how we outsource some front of house operations, events, communications. But what we're not considering is our very core programs, which are accreditation and credentialing.
And so that is more about associations. So I think we'll want to retain the skill sets and the roles that directly touch the member, but those that support the touching of the member, which sounds very weird, is I think where we'll see. A lot of change, whether it's through automation outsourcing or even potentially sharing of resources.
Christina Lewellen: If I could just draw an underline under [00:09:00] what Preet said. I think that you're right. The job functions and skills that are core to the strategy are likely to be the ones that really stay home at the association, but I'll just note that can change. So it could be that if you're launching a new program or something that is really high priority on your strategy.
You might need marketing and communications to be on your team, but then once it becomes rote, once it becomes the chug, a chug of work that we always do, just trains leaving the station, then you might reevaluate that. And I would say that it won't be that those skills are no longer needed at associations, but I think it's gonna be.
The chief staffing executive's job is to take a pause, take a beat, and go, okay, I understand why eight years ago we needed the marketing team because we were launching this new thing, or we went through a merger. But now that we've got that settled down and things are a little bit more business as usual, do we still need that function in house?
I think that's where you'll see some of these fringe [00:10:00] tasks like accounting or HR, but even some member programs and services like what Preet was saying that they're considering, that is likely to possibly shift just depending on where it falls in your strategic plan. Organizations that can be fairly nimble are probably gonna be the ones that really leverage having the right skillset in-house.
And then I'll just note that I think the AI right now is. Clickbait. The headlines are just getting our attention, getting us all wound up, and there is some voice coming through the clickbait noise right now that is bringing a certain amount of pragmatism and levelheadedness to the conversation because we have not gotten to the point where generalized intelligence is going to be able to connect the dots on all the content, community, and connection that we create for associations.
We still need to do that as humans putting those pieces of the puzzle together. But any jobs that do require those conclusions to be drawn and those dots to be connected are very likely to stay a part of [00:11:00] our kind of landscape for a while. 
Preet Bassi: Yeah. And connecting with that, we've said we don't mind if AI proprietary tools are automating very rote tasks for us, but we don't want AI being the.
Connection point for our members. It's like AI can touch our members stuff and because we're a conformity assessment body, we're accrediting fire department's credentialing fire professionals. So there's a lot of checking of their application, verifying, ensuring that it's correct. Sure, the AI can do that, but I want to make sure that the person, the humans are central to the ongoing engagement because so much of what people are coming to associations for.
Isn't just, oh, I have money in my budget that I need to spend on an annual conference. They're looking for community. They're looking for connection. The content they could get anywhere, but those other two pieces do require that there's a human on the other end. [00:12:00] 
Sharon Pare: Putting AI aside, are there any new skills rising that maybe we're not talking about enough in the space?
Christina Lewellen: I think that there's a lot of emotional intelligence that we are going to need because of AI. I'd love that we could just set it aside or set it on a shelf, Sharon, but that's not the reality we're living in. But I think that to your question, I understand the point of what you're getting to, and I think that we're gonna need humans who are super.
So many, you know, we need good emotional intelligence. We need to make sure that our workplaces are bringing balance and flexibility to the humans who work at them. And I think that all these things are possible, and it's not just because of ai. We should have been doing that anyway before ai. But I do think that in the emerging generations of leaders.
We're hearing about how emotional intelligence can be the antidote to burnout and how it can really create healthy culture. So I think that having some of those soft skills, having resilience to get through hard things is probably, [00:13:00] I don't know if they're skills, but they're at least a characteristic of the future workforce that we're going to need to develop.
Preet Bassi: Christina must have been in an amazing conversation we had at our all hands staff coordination meeting. We meet periodically in person and we looked at ASAE's, Drivers of Change around the more human humans to ensure that we were doubling down on that. Another skillset that I would add, and I think this has historically been something that's been reserved at the director C-suite level, but it may now need to promulgate the entire organization, is continuous improvement, creativity and small eye innovation.
Am I doing the right thing? Is there a better way of doing it? Not just can I do more of it? And whether that's a staff member that feels empowered to bring that idea forward. Obviously managers, directors, who should be looking at it, and the CEO, who should be creating that culture where that's the expectation [00:14:00] around to just improve it.
We actually redid our entire. Staff competencies list and there were core competencies for the entire organization. Some were considered to you. Gotta be aware, proficient and expert customer service was expert throughout emotional intelligence, was expert throughout, even for the most junior member of our team.
Sharon Pare: I think that's a perfect lead in to how we think about learning itself. Christina, maybe we'll bring it back to you, but how do you see professional development evolving? 
Christina Lewellen: Look at the surface level. If we can get generalized content easily from ai, then associations have this imperative to do the deeper dive.
I think we're gonna have to do more customized professional development because members can go find information on. You know the chat bot du jour, right? So what we need to do as associations, as we think about learning and PD and [00:15:00] how we're gonna deliver that, is that we really should get in a place where we're offering specialized guidance to help them, the member, stand out in their shifting marketplace.
It's not just that associations are going through these changes, our members. To navigate them too. As far as how we do this, it is very likely that we're going to incorporate AI bots and gentech AI into our associations the way that we eventually embedded the internet into our delivery system in the late 1990s and early two thousands.
It's very awkward in adolescent right now, but it's maturing quickly, so we're going to have to walk this path, but we probably need to do so at varying rates to hit all of our members where they are and make sure that they're getting the delivery mechanisms that they need at the end of the day. In the education sector, when the internet was widely available, there was this massive fear that the end of school, as we know it was upon us.
And as it turns out, lo and behold, we still have [00:16:00] school. Right? So I don't think that AI is going to, in any way, hold. Fully eliminate association generated content or standard setting in particular, super customized, super niche, right? And even like our in-person gatherings, in fact, we may see that there's a greater need to have in-person or virtual communities of humans getting together because of these AI shifts that are taking place.
So. I feel like there's a lot of concern about what AI might do to disrupt us, but at the same time, if we lean into it, there's a lot of opportunity for us to get the the surfacey level stuff out of the way so that we can do a deeper dive, and that's what we're very well equipped to do. 
Preet Bassi: I think for me, the greatest opportunity is if whatever format the professional development it is provides actionable insights, go do this.
Here's the tips for replication, here's why it would be a good idea. Provides flexibility for engagement and really understanding people like to consume information in very different ways. [00:17:00] I think about the subsidiary that we're launching as we've looked through delivering content in a handbook, in an in-person workshop through onsite facilitation, reading short case studies, searching through an LLM on your own.
But also picking up the phone and talking to an expert. That's the range of the ways that you could engage with this content. And I think then if you are able to provide some flexibility in the way that the engagement is your in-person experiences, no more lecture, leverage those for real good engagement.
Use that time together, let them read the stuff ahead of time. And there's always this sense of wanting to lead to the lowest common denominator. We send them the pre-read and we told them to after the pre-webinar video, but they didn't. Too bad. So sad. If the in-person experience is focused on [00:18:00] engagement, they'll keep coming back 
Sharon Pare: Preet, you mentioned accreditations just a moment ago, so I'd love your take on this, especially considering some insight from Foresight Works.
Some skepticism around the credentialed experts. Would you be able to share what that might mean for certification in the future? And also for the listeners, if you could explain Foresight Works just a little bit too, and what their role is in sharing with us their insights. 
Preet Bassi: Absolutely. So at CPSE, we accredit departments.
Credential professionals, and it's not a requirement that they be connected. They're two separate programs. There's significant overlap. We are well aware that rejection of expertise is a societal threat and it's no different for us. There is this unfortunate bifurcation within the fire service of the progressive responsive data informed departments and [00:19:00] individuals are going in one direction and the traditional, don't move my cheese or in a different direction, and it's becoming a culture war. Much pick a topic. You could have a culture war around it. Foresight works. It has quite a few drives of change, and so this is an annual effort through the research foundation, one of ASAE's subsidiaries that tries to identify.
Those things that are happening that are going to cause an impact to associations. We already mentioned the more human humans is one of the drivers of change that's out there. There are a few related to rejection of expertise, but also this impact on credentialing programs. And it has to be said like the workplace today is a challenged one.
A lot of requirements can become barriers to entry. For individuals. I know that we've actually been supporting a lot of work on how to create [00:20:00] a more. Open and equitable fire service that doesn't require somebody on day zero to pay an application fee and be able to do the physical tasks. Let's look for the attitudes that we want, that they have an aptitude to learn, and through an academy they can get to that point where they're able to do those tasks.
But at some point there is a line in the sand that has to be drawn that shows is there an industry standard? How are we performing to set industry standard and is that standard changing? So I think about this even in an environment where credentials, experts, there's public skepticism about it. CPCs credentialing program is growing.
We grew 44% in the last five years, and there were a couple of ways that we've done that. One, we've diversified our offerings. We don't just have a single credential. We historically had, it was the chief fire officer. We've added six for [00:21:00] individuals that are more junior in the organization. That's the fire officer, and also five specialty ones with two of them being typically held by people who don't wear a uniform.
They work in the fire department, but they aren't a uniform member of the fire department. So that's been really interesting. The other is, how are we making it? Easier to go through the credentialing process. So we've done significant technology changes in the application process. We also wanted to make sure that our credential was pushing for excellence.
Our mission is to lead the fire and emergency service excellence, so we wanted to make sure we did that. We do have some industry standards that we've historically relied on to pull technical competencies out of. We realize that. Scope of update was too narrow and not frequent enough. We then conducted an analysis of what are the skill sets that future leaders in this space need, and we added those to [00:22:00] our credentialing model.
Mental health and wellness. Health for the firefighters was really important as was data and technology because there weren't other standards out there today that were requiring those. We removed our own barriers to entry. We historically asked the supervisor to attest to the application. Unfortunately, if there was a relationship that wasn't great or.
In some cases, if the member who was seeking the credential was in a more traditional setting, but they wanted to be a little bit more progressive, and especially if they were from an underrepresented group, they weren't getting that. We've now removed that requirement. We've also started offering scholarships and once every five years, we take every single one of our programs through our business process plan to make sure that.
We don't have any unintended breaks in what we're doing, so the rejection of expertise is there. It is a threat, but some thoughtfulness about how the credentialing programs are built and [00:23:00] how they're delivered can really go a long way to overcoming some of that initial pushback that may be rooted in an access barrier that then becomes a rejection of this credential.
Christina Lewellen: If I could just add Sharon. I'll throw a hand grenade kind of into the room or drop a truth bomb, whatever analogy you want is that, yeah, associations are facing this trust issue, both in the realm of certification and credentialing, but in other realms as well. But we also have a branding issue on our hands.
It's not just a trust issue, right? It's not just that folks are more skeptical of what we offer. I think that we need to shift our mindset from the sit and get certifications. Because anyone could leverage an LLM and get the answers out of a textbook. It's the same thing we're seeing happening in education.
Done credentials and certifications are likely to become very devalued in short order. So I think the important opportunity here is in those scenarios and experience-based [00:24:00] credentials, I think that's where the value will come into play because they demonstrate. That human centric and that human dependent expertise.
So if we're facing skepticism around our credentialing programs, I think that associations are gonna have to challenge the status quo of those programs. They're cash cows, right? They've been designed, and who really has the appetite to just chuck it out the window and start again, but equally important to making sure that the content is there and it can't easily be replicated by an LLM.
I think that we're gonna have to elevate our messaging and our branding around these programs to help the end user, whether that's from a safety perspective with fire departments, or whether it's someone trying to hire a technology director for an independent school. We need to focus on those aspects that are really unique and uniquely human, and I think that's where some branding and messaging might need to be elevated as well.
Sharon Pare: I think that's some great insight and you mentioned Don't Move My Cheese, and it really feels like [00:25:00] a big throwback to decades ago. 
Ad Read: Let's take a quick break for a word from this episode. Sponsor the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Atlanta is a leading convention city providing an exceptional environment for a wide range of events, meetings, and trade shows.
The destination strength lies in its highly accessible and walkable convention district, which is seamlessly integrated with its entertainment district, home to the world's number one air. Court Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta International Airport, and a substantial inventory of more than 113,000 hotel rooms in the metro region.
The city is well equipped to accommodate small and large scale gatherings in Atlanta. Your success is our top priority. Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau and our close-knit hospitality community, don't just serve as a resource. We become an extension of your team. For more information, [00:26:00] visit discover atlanta.com.
Sharon Pare: I wanna move into the future a little bit, and so if we imagine someone thriving in the association world in 2035, what does that look like? Preet, I'll start with you. 
Preet Bassi: Oh, first, acknowledging that everything is changing everywhere, all at once. Sounds like a movie, right? It is. It’s burned from a movie. I think the shift from, and I hate this phrase, being member-driven, I think it's being member-informed, board directed, staff executed, and that being a constant cycle, not a one-off, not just every five years, we're gonna do a strategic plan, which nobody should be doing that.
Really looking at it from the back of house standpoint, the association and Christina mentioned it earlier about how technology, the internet joined associations in the late nineties, and it had to be that every company today needs to be a technology company. Your systems and experiences need to be [00:27:00] just so seamless.
You have to effectively use your volunteers. I think the industry subject matter experts have to remain core. To what we do and we can't over index on staff 'cause that's why we're here doing my best. Oprah, everybody gets a KPI like if you're not measuring every single program, whether it's KPI, OKRs, pick your system, your metric format, you have to.
And I think at the end it's definitely seeing grounded in the mission, adapting to that change that's happening everywhere. Everything all at once. If those ingredients hopefully will set up the association to thrive if the board and senior staff are willing to do so, if they're willing to change, if they're willing to accept and if they're going to be an emu that puts their head in the sand. This too shall pass. And a lot [00:28:00] of that disruption and hostile takeovers that we talked about are just going to occur 
Christina Lewellen: If we're looking 10 years down the road. I'll just amplify what Preet said, that we have to include healthy governance, whatever that looks like. It's the thing that sets us apart from corporations and government bodies.
Associations have this powerful partnership between the board, our industry experts, and. The staff are operational experts, and if we're looking long term, there are some organizations that we all know of that could probably do with a bit of a governance overhaul, and some organizations were ahead of the curve on this and trying to revamp things to be more innovative, to be more responsive to the need.
So the member, but if that hasn't happened already, I think that's what's gonna set apart the good from the great is when that one plus one equals three on the governance side, that it's boring, but it is essential and key to who we are and how we operate. It's what makes associations [00:29:00] really different and special.
And I think far too many associations just don't. Wanna bite that elephant. They just don't wanna tackle it. But I think that's gonna be an important way in which associations can thrive moving forward. I also think that there's an opportunity for us if we don't exactly know where a lot of technology and content is gonna go.
I would imagine that 10 years from now we become the distilling experts. If there's an overabundance of information, then being able to connect the dots and being able to sift the macro factors and how it affects the industry you serve. I would anticipate associations are gonna play a more intricate analysis role when it comes to all this content and.
I guess I would just add that the community side of things with associations, we've always helped people find their people. That's not gonna change, but I would imagine in 10 years we may have to help our industry's voice stand out again with. So much information, the evolution of AI, we're [00:30:00] probably gonna have to help our industries navigate their own shifting landscapes and make sure that their voices are coming together to get that critical messaging and or work out in the public sphere.
So I would imagine that there's also something, and not just bringing community together for the sake of community, but for amplifying voices in a really noisy room. 
Sharon Pare: As you're talking about helping the industry ship that landscape, and we're talking about thriving, we also have to talk about value, right?
So what will make associations truly desirable to future members? 
Christina Lewellen: More than we do right now? We have to understand the nuances of our members because there's a really wide variety of jobs to be done by associations. So too often we segment our communities either by the positions that they hold or the certain.
Stage of their career that they might be at. But they come to us to do a job. Each member, each individual member comes to our association looking for some kind of job that we [00:31:00] are gonna do for them, and we might need to revisit that jobs to be done methodology in the context of a really unsettled and evolving landscape.
The job we're supposed to do for them yesterday is unlikely to be the job they're gonna pay us to do in the future. And whether that's onboard to my new career or help me get a new job or. Help me make connections in my industry. Whatever those jobs were yesterday, they're likely to change tomorrow. So I think that we need to stay tapped into that on the value side for members.
And I also think that we may wanna talk more about the emotional connection that members have with our associations. So it's not just that we're gonna be their special library, that they go to pass a certification exam or that we’re their voice on the hill or their. In person conference of choice. I think that increasingly humans are gonna seek other humans, and we have this opportunity to evolve our role in making that connection, maybe making more personalized connections, smaller cohorts and things like that.
So [00:32:00] I think there's a couple of ways that we can not upend the apple cart entirely, but maybe tweak the values that we're bringing to the market today to be more responsive and flexible in the future. 
Preet Bassi: I wanna pick up on one of the comments that Christina made actually to the previous question that it was about helping our industry, and I'd add sometimes when they don't even know that they need to be.
So are we a trustee for our members or are we a delegate? The trustee acts in the best interest of the members, but perhaps doesn't do exactly what we want them, they would want us to do. The delegate does and a lot of that is looking at trying to predict what's gonna be in the future. A phrase that I'm sure my team is quite sick of using recently is just in time.
So what are the “just in time” solutions, but also what is the “just in time” volunteering? I actually would love to hang out with this organization for the next three months and do a thing, but I'm really not interested in doing it every single day. [00:33:00] So how are we building our programs in that way? I think also there's gonna be this sense of brand connection and is this an organization that you want to belong to?
Does it speak to who you are? The governance comment, I only, my only addition to what Christina had is I wish we were in Zoom and I would've put the 100 underline emoji on what she said 'cause it's so true. Radically transparent governance. If the members can't figure out why the organization made a change, whatever said changes, you have a problem.
So they don't necessarily need to know how many people voted X versus Y, but every decision needs to be done in this really transparent way. And I also think there's, for associations, like there's perhaps a number of associations that a member interacts with. They might want you periodically to collaborate but not necessarily partner with the other associations.
Like it's fine for you to do your [00:34:00] own thing, but. Really looking at how do you collaborate on those big issues, those once every five year big efforts, they're gonna want to see. That was an industry-wide effort and not just a you association effort and from a member, their ability to buy, whether that's driven by the point in their career, beginning of their career, end of their career, or do just what they want.
I think we need to be okay selling them margarine, but also butter. So if we're like, we always want the best in class offering, we want this high touch, really glossy educational deliverable. Wonderful. Also, are you delivering similar content in a boring on-demand webinar that they can buy for $29? If you aren't delivering at both of those price points, you are going to make it so that you've automatically isolated some of your members.
So those are some of the things that really came to me, but I think that big one is, are you. Able to act as their [00:35:00] trustee. We got your back versus we're just gonna do what you tell us to do so you'll buy more from us. And that's going to require some guts on behalf of the board and the CEO to be willing to make that shift.
Sharon Pare: I think that’s some really great coins. And that's one side of the coin. And of course there's the other is who will wanna work for associations. So I'll keep this open for both of you, but what does an attractive association employer look like in the future? 
Christina Lewellen: This is my favorite topic because I really think that associations have this opportunity to stand out when it comes to designing the workforce and the workplace of the future.
And we have what a lot of people are looking for. We have mission, we have this purpose, and a lot of folks are trying to connect. If I'm gonna spend this many hours of my life working at a job. What in the world is it all for? So I think that we have a great message to sell, but I also think that we can shape what a workforce looks like and be an example for our members.
[00:36:00] Companies like whoever joins your association, you can be the one setting a great example. That's one of the things that Atlas tries to do. I have my way of doing things as a CEO, it. Pretty well known at this point, so I'll just run the laundry list really quickly. We do not send internal emails. We have zero internal emails.
We are entirely based in a project management system. I run a permanent four day work week. We have unlimited PTO. I'm even entertaining some really creative additional offerings to my benefits package that are really out there, and I don't wanna go on public record saying it yet because I gotta get my budget passed.
But I basically, my whole goal. My whole lens for all of this is that my members, Atlas's members, deserve an effective, efficient, and inspired workforce. Simply put, it's good ROI for them to have a ridiculously loyal and happy staff. I believe in that. And so I think that your employees certainly deserve a healthy environment, and we might as well go [00:37:00] about removing obstacles to their continued excellence.
Let's put them in a position to succeed. Not everybody is going to do it my way. Not everybody's gonna do a four day work week. Not everyone's gonna be decentralized. I understand that. But I do think for the associations who choose to accept this mission, both in terms of attracting and retaining the staff that we get, but also like influencing all of the industries that we serve.
Can you imagine the fingerprint? We would leave. The associations decided tomorrow that we were going to create best in class workplaces, and then our members started following suits. Think about the influence we would have. So this is an area where I have a lot of passion and it's not just because it works for Atlas, I'm seeing.
So many of our peers take these nuggets. Well, Christina's kind of crazy and she'll try these things. Maybe I could try 'em too and see what that does for our team. And I think that the benefits have been really incredible. So I know I get worked up and really excited about this topic, but I think it's not just for the sake of being recognized as like somebody cool [00:38:00] to work for.
I don't care about that. It's not what it's about. I don't care if they wanna work for me. What I want is I want employees. Who are obscenely committed to our mission, and that's what I believe our members deserve. 
Sharon Pare: Preet, is there anything you wanna layer onto that?
Preet Bassi: All the praise that Christina is well known for all of those amazing things.
And to say how she has been an inspiration, speak to it. So we've done the basic. We're remote first. We outsource where we need to. We contract where we need to. We're creating new and additional world, but we have our 2024 to 2027 strategic plan, and one of the four tenets of that is to be people focused.
Christina Lewellen: Yay. That's really cool. Tell me we are about that and it's, wait, hold on. We're taking over. Sharon, I wanna hear about this. 
Sharon Pare: No, please do a deep dive. 
Preet Bassi: We want a people-focused organization, and I can't even begin to quote all of the great statements, but it was something that came through in, in a given year.
700 people between [00:39:00] our volunteers, contractors, and staff do a thing that. Add something to the board. So if they're reviewing a application, they're conducting a site visit, thinking about our volunteers, contractors, the world that they do and the staff. So what would it look like if we thought about being that best in class?
We've been doing org culture surveys that are actually not terrible for a while with our contractors and staff, and making some actionable changes based on that. We're currently engaged with a project with a. Volunteer expert to do a complete overhaul of how we manage our volunteers, which we have about 650 of them, and it really is knowing that on any given day, any of them have a choice, whether it's the volunteers, many of our contractors are soon to be retiring.
Chief fire officers, so they've got a retirement, they're looking about giving back. They're sure [00:40:00] everybody likes an extra dollar, but they're not motivated by the monetary. They're looking about how they continue to continue to commission, and I actually believe we've extended. Many of our fire professionals, livelihood and contributions by giving them a place within CPSC and those that are and have been progressive, continue to be.
So I think that people first concept, we're early in it. We're only a year and a bit into our strategic plan. But there's some seven or eight strategies underneath this focus area, multiple objectives, and really wanting to succeed through our people. We know that it doesn't matter what tech, doesn't matter what systems.
There is a human at the center of everything. So if they feel that we are the best place and we bring out the best from them, and so much of it is about culture in an organization, but I think you know that adage of culture, eat strategy for breakfast. I saw a better version of culture and strategy eat breakfast [00:41:00] together.
I think that is really true and. I was so happy recently. One of our team members, she'd been out on maternity leave and came back and just sent us this message of how she felt so supported and she had never been in an organization that truly embodied family first and didn't just say it, but then. Are you sure you need to go to that graduation?
Are you sure you can't make the time? So it really was important, and this is not an ego trip, but at some point I think the association needs to be attractive to A CEO to want to come to, and especially A CEO that's gonna have some positive results for the organization. So that then falls to the board.
We've talked about a lot of our staff and how we're gonna help them, but how does the board enter into this partnership with their CEO that makes it a place that the good CEO actually wants to work? 
Sharon Pare: That's awesome. Preet, and I know we've gotta wrap up soon, but there's a common theme that I'm starting to [00:42:00] see in our conversation, A sense of belonging, connection, collaboration, humane, I love that word too.
People first, but we painted a really forward looking picture here. So where does the journey begin? 
Christina Lewellen: Look, we're in an era marked with change, so we have to lean into time proven like change management techniques, right? And so whatever model you pick, I think that we're at this era where some of us might be concerned about change, and so some of us might feel like we need to double down on the way that things work.
COVID gave us this opportunity to be in a change mindset, and the associations that took advantage of that and continue to take advantage of it are gonna be in the best position to make the transition. So if we think about where this should go or what the first step should be, we are. Very good at setting a vision.
Associations are good at that. We are good at saying, where do we wanna go? Let's be proactive. Let's clearly define what we're gonna be able to do to add value to our community, and then let's pursue that vision with the intensity that we always have. So I think you know [00:43:00] where to start with all this is just to be comfortable with discomfort and the fact that we are in a change management cycle and then we can really stand out.
I truly believe associations have. This opportunity to stand out more so than private or public companies. We're not driven by the dollar or shareholders. We've got the space to think about long-term investment and commitment to our goals, and now we need to do that. 
Preet Bassi: I love what Christina said, and we had a board member who really helped our organization at a time when we were moving from our fix it phase to our grow it phase, and he talked about runway, not-for-profits, associations, we've got a runway, we can make a plan and we can see it through.
Are we willing to do? That's the fortitude piece. And for an association that's trying to figure out how to change, I think you need to get good at doing the simple things so that there's trust, because all the changes and all the ideas. So if you aren't good at returning emails, phone calls, messages internally, externally.
If you [00:44:00] don't consistently deliver on your commitments, there's no trust there for you to make the next set of changes. That someone will be like, I don't know, that sounds a little weird. Are you sure we're going to do that? And I comment often about CPSE having had our fix it phase and now we're in our grow it phase.
It's not just, we're not just growing in numbers, we're growing in evolution of who we are. Like who do we wanna be when we grow up? Kind of growth. But what paved the way for us to be able to do that was consistent delivery commitment to what we were saying in the smallest ways. So that people knew we could do the next crazy idea that we came up with and that we were going to walk them along, which from a change management standpoint, just as Christina said, that's so big.
But I think the trust and how do you begin to measure the trust? How do you start going after those areas that there is potential, some distrust. It is the currency that any change is gonna need, and if it doesn't exist, [00:45:00] a great CEO, A great system, any number of great ideas just aren't gonna go anywhere.
How you do that takes communication takes. Calling the baby ugly when it needs to be called ugly, and making those small, but also big swing changes that do get you where you need to go. 
Sharon Pare: I think that's a great way to round out this podcast. I appreciate you both being guests on today's show. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Association NOW Presents.
Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals. Discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. We would like to give a big thanks again to this episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau.
For more information, visit discoveratlanta.com. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, [00:46:00] and wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Or go to associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thanks for listening.

Scaling with Purpose: Inclusion, Innovation, and Impact

Season 2 kicks off live from the ASAE Annual Meeting & Exposition in Los Angeles! Guest hosts Ben Muscolino, Gretchen Steenstra, and Jake Toohey of The Association Podcast sit down with Bobbie Racette, founder and president of Virtual Gurus. Bobbie shares her inspiring journey as an Indigenous queer woman in tech, from launching Virtual Gurus in 2016 to scaling it into a thriving, values-driven company. She opens up about overcoming challenges, securing funding, leading through COVID-19, and the critical role of company culture. The conversation explores how Virtual Gurus is integrating AI responsibly, Bobbie’s vision for global expansion, and audience questions on building inclusive workplaces and communities.
This episode is sponsored by Destination Canada and Visit Denver.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
Ben Muscolino: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to the Associations NOW Presents podcast live from the show floor here at ASAE 25. I am Ben Muscolino with Brezio, AMS Geek, and Data Sangria. I'm here with my co-hosts of The Association Podcast. Jake and Gretchen. We are so excited to be bringing our format and our passion for the industry over the Associations NOW Presents podcast.
We have an incredible guest today and I'm gonna kick it over to one of my co-hosts and we're gonna get that going. So glad you're here with us today. 
Gretchen Steenstra: So I am Gretchen Steenstra, the permanent/temporary guest co-host. I think I came for five episodes and I don't know how many, maybe 50 now. My day job, I work at DelCor, a technology consulting company, and one of my passion projects is I'm a founder of AWTC, which supports women in tech and part of tech council and [00:01:00] all the association families.
So I'm really happy to be here and nice to meet you today. 
Jake Toohey: Hey, I'm Jake Toohet. I am the director of the association practice at Adage Technologies. We're a digital strategy, web development and design firm, and, work with all associations. And we are thrilled to have Bobby Racette, Virtual Guru's, former CEO, now president, founder.
So thrilled to have you. Can you start by just talking a little bit about what you do and your background and just kick it off from there. 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah. Hi. Thanks everyone. This is amazing. So founder and CEO of Virtual Gurus. So I started Virtual Gurus in 2016 because nobody would give me a job. I was looking for work for, I don't know, close to a year, and nobody would give me a job at all.
So I actually started it just to create a job for myself. And at the time, I had no idea I was gonna scale into this big thing. It was gonna go where it went. I had no idea that it was gonna be AI eventually, and that there'd be thousands of people working in the [00:02:00] platform. But here I am and happy to be here.
Ben Muscolino: Hey, Bobbie. We're storytellers in the association space. Your story is so incredible. We wanna talk with you about several things today, but to get things kicked off, talk to us about what you've been up to this morning and the session that you led. How was that for you? 
Bobbie Racette: I've been traveling a lot talking about my story.
I actually just flew in from Japan and I was speaking out at the World Expo, which has been amazing. Such an amazing experience. Just to be saying that I'm speaking and I'm out at the expo. I was there on a trades mission and just really telling the story, but this morning it was really just about telling my journey and about culture and my journey of being an indigenous queer woman in technology and how hard it's been to get to where I am today, and meant to raising millions and millions of dollars to run the company and to build the AI.
Now we're scaling globally, and I was actually in Japan meeting with senior leaders like the CEO of Mitsubishi to try to get our AI out [00:03:00] there a little bit more. So it's been a pretty crazy ride these last few weeks. 
Ben Muscolino: Bobbie we have so many things that we wanna learn about you, but I'm very interested in what was the turning point where you realized that you wanted to start virtual gurus?
What was that catalyst? Because you kind of talked a little bit about the need to want to create work for yourself. Was that really the catalyst moment? Talk to us about that. 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah. I was working in oil and gas in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where a lot of people are working oil and gas. But layoffs came like when the gas prices dropped, and I think 37,000 people were laid off within one day, and I was one of those people.
But when everybody went into the city and was trying to find work. By the time I got there, all the jobs were either being taken up, but all of the people that were more qualified or maybe fit their culture more got the jobs over me. And so I was looking for work for so long and nobody would hire me at all.
I don't know what it was. I'd like to say maybe it's just 'cause of who I am, [00:04:00] but a queer woman in tech and nobody would hire me. So I actually created a job for myself. I was the virtual assistant. I wasn't actually planning to scale it, I was just doing it to create a job for myself and. I had 19 clients, so I started with $300 in my pocket and I bootstrapped it to 1.8 million in revenue.
And then I realized I needed to hire, and then I needed to raise money and there's a lot of work to do. And so I closed my first funding round in 2020. The light bulb went on, why don't I start this platform to create work for people like me? And then all of a sudden, the platform just went wild. 
Ben Muscolino: So the serendipitous timing.
Where everyone that maybe got to the jobs before you did and then you raising money in 2020 and scaling when you did. What an incredible twist of timing for business being in 2020 when everything went virtual. Right? 
Bobbie Racette: Everything went virtual, and then I closed three funding rounds during [00:05:00] COVID, which nobody was investing at the time because they were so scared to use their dry powder.
But I was like, let's go and, and it worked well. We scaled 300% year overgrowth through every year and through COVID through three years. 
Gretchen Steenstra: So you were describing how difficult that was. Were there assumptions you made and had to adjust throughout these cycles? Like you said in the very beginning, you didn't know how to raise funds and people were turning you down.
But as you matured and evolved, what are the assumptions you're facing now that you assume when you're going out for funding or building your company, that you have to adjust and. 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah, I guess the landscape has changed so much from COVID. Before COVID, it was scary. People weren't really interested in the freelancing platforms and it wasn't as well known.
And then COVID hit and then everybody went remote and everybody was laid off their jobs. So people started going to platforms like ours. All the administrative people were getting laid off and then they came to me and so I was picking them up and recycling them back out and cold calling [00:06:00] the companies that were laying people off during COVID.
And I'm basically saying. Your company still needs to open and function, so we got E four back office support. The thing for us was just assuming that we were gonna be bigger then, and we were just gonna scale and we leveraged COVID for that and I was quite surprised with where it went. During that time.
We built out a people over profit program. So all the startups that were struggling to pay the bills, we gave them free virtual assistants. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. Right after I closed my first finding round. So I'm like, thanks, invest. Or by the way, I'm gonna give free service those away 
Jake Toohey: There's one of the things that I took away from your session this morning was the culture thing.
Yeah. The kind of culture that you built at the organization. And I think, you know, one of the things that I, I remember is you saying that you used to hear the resumes hit the bottom of the trash can. You never wanted to make anybody else feel like that. Can you talk about that involving culture and what's driving that?
Bobbie Racette: Yeah. This was back when you used to go to the offices and hand in your resume 20 16, [00:07:00] 20 17. And like I said, nobody would hire me and I would literally go to leave the office and I could hear a piece of paper hitting the trash can and I knew that was my resume and it just made me so angry and sad. And essentially that's almost what powered my thesis on if we provide more work to marginalized communities, then.
We can't let people shine if we're gonna keep doing that. 'cause surely if I'm feeling that, then how many others were feeling it. But it did was inspire me and fuel me to keep going and to create this. I guess some will say I created it out of anger, but I really just created it out of spite. I thought “you all told me no so many times that I'm going to take my own control now.”
Gretchen Steenstra: Yeah. But I, I don't even know if it was spite you were just so passionate about. I found this, and a lot of the things you do, which I think is really interesting is you formed it into repeatable like almost products. So I'm looking at your culture cleanup toolkit. And so in addition to running a company, raising [00:08:00] money, growing the company, taking care of your employees, you also seem to have packaged some of these thesis statements and ideas into tools.
I've never seen that with a founder who's doing all of these things. And creating, you know, actual artifacts to help with people. 
Bobbie Racette: It's all tell you much when you go to an office or a startup or tech company or a business, any business, and people talk that their culture is good. But then you go in, you're like, whoa, this thing's about to explode.
And so I, I see a lot of that and I'm a firm believer of if you're gonna talk the talk, then you gotta walk the walk and you gotta show it, right? So the culture toolkit was more on, based on. We had some toxicity go through our company. And during COVID, when toxicity comes into your company, it's like a snake that just doesn't stop and you have to do a lot of work to fix it to right side it.
And so I really built the toolkit based on how do I make sure that I'm creating an [00:09:00] open and honest, happy space for all of the employees? How am I making them safe? How am I allowing people to understand the culture and what is allowed and what's not allowed, and what kind of a culture that we wanna have in the office.
And so it really helped with that. 
Gretchen Steenstra: What made you say, whoa, so a minute ago you just, you said you walk into an office and you feel this, like, what are a couple things that people don't notice that you noticed? 
Bobbie Racette: Like male leaders, for example. And when you go into, also say it like, tech bros, let's be real. I love tech.
I'm in tech, but tech bros. Can be a little bit hard to handle. And if there's women working and those, they're mansplained in weight. I'm not saying it's everybody. 'cause believe me, I have a lot of tech friends that are males because I'm in the tech community and they all treat me like I'm their little sister.
They treat me really well, but you can see it and it can really shut down your business. I've seen it shut down some successful startups. 
Gretchen Steenstra: We joke a lot at AWTC. We're advancing, empowering women, but men are welcome. You know, like it's not [00:10:00] excluding men, it's. Making sure that we're all being respectful of each other.
And Jake and Ben are two of the biggest champions we have at AWTC. And I think that's been interesting with us as people ask, can we join you? They're like, of course you can join us. Just don't be a jerk. You know? I mean, it's not hard, right? Yeah. So there's a lot of men in part of our organization that are great.
Bobbie Racette: Our new person taking over my role, I won't say too much just 'cause it's going out, but is male and I'm happy for it. We're a woman led indigenous business. 90% of my VPs are women. I have an all female board and I'm proud of it. I'm proud that we have a male taking over as my successor. Very good.
Ben Muscolino: Alright, so we're gonna keep going here, but we're gonna take a quick break and just hear from one of our sponsors. Quick note from Destination Canada. From the rugged Rocky Mountains to Sparkling Ocean Shores, Canada offers world-class venues and visionary leaders like Bobby Rossett. It gives you a sense of [00:11:00] belonging, the ability to unlock new ways of thinking, and a place where great business minds come to open their minds for business events that inspire, naturally build partnerships, drive transformation, and leave a meaningful legacy visit.
Business events canada.ca. So we had the pleasure of having Magic Johnson join us yesterday and he mentioned DEI being a thing, not being a thing, whatever's going to do with that. However you normalize that for, for yourself and, and any of the listeners businesses. But basically what he said is, let's just start being good again, right?
And however you label it or don't label it, let's get back to just doing right by each other. And I think that resonated with the room because. It's on a lot of people's minds and how that's gonna impact funding and culture and all these things. And it's a topic in our industry related to, you know, how are people financially gonna put things together, what's their reliance on, you know, what can I have associated with my business and can't [00:12:00] I, in order to get certain funding or when certain business?
And I think it gets best to the core of doing the right thing and working with the right people and building that culture. And so I guess what I'm trying to get at is talking about culture. Like where does all that resonate for you? 
Bobbie Racette: Well, my mom always told me, treat people the way you wanna be treated, right?
Like it is common sense. And I think every company should have that. And I think big things can happen if you treat people the way you wanna be treated. Just 'cause I'm a CEO, it doesn't mean I treat the customer service rep in my company or the sales person any differently than the COO or the CTO, I treat them all the same.
Jake Toohey: Can you talk a little bit about adversity and the adversity you've faced? Talk about. How you got to the point of actually getting the funding that you needed to, to grow and scale? 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah, so I bootstrapped virtual gurus to about 1.8 million in revenue, and it was then I realized that I probably needed to start raising money, but I had no idea what to do.
I was like, oh man, this is gonna be crazy. I literally [00:13:00] started the company with $300 in my pocket to go to having to raise out of valuation to raise millions. And so I set out to start pitching and I pitched all over North America. I went through 170 investors saying no, and I knew all it took was just that one.
Yes. But I was like, when am I gonna get the yes, yes. Yeah. The first yes, was the hundred and 71st pitch, and it was a cold email, reach out to an indigenous funding company, and five minutes later they called me and then they led that round. And then Telus Ventures led in second round and Telus Ventures coming on and they have MassMutual here in the US on my cap table now, and some pretty big names.
Now. 
Jake Toohey: You talked also about giving people feedback. I mean, as you had to kind of evolve your pitch over 171 different pitches. But I really liked hearing about your methodology with making sure that you're getting people feedback, even if there's some rejected attached to it. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Bobbie Racette: Yeah. I like to tell people that it [00:14:00] was probably quite annoying to people, but when somebody says no to me, other than the initial kind of jab to the heart where you're hurt and you're like, what? You don't wanna invest in me? Like why? Once that goes away, it's the, okay, but tell me why. Okay. And here's the funny thing about investors is they all say the exact same thing when they're just saying no.
And it's an easy way out of you don't fall in line with our thesis, although I do, and the company did. 'cause I wouldn't be pitching if it didn't or you're not scalable, right? And so I started actually going back to them and saying, look, you can't say I'm not scalable and you can't say this. Tell me the real reason.
Tell me the real, and putting the ball back in their court, holding them accountable. It's the fact that. Maybe they just didn't have enough space in their hearts for me because of who I am, like a woman with tattoos and queer, it really scared a lot of people, especially in the VC world. And so I really had to learn what I needed to adjust.
What was it that really made me not get [00:15:00] those investments? And really at the end of the day, none of them had an actual reason. But I was able to tweak and build the company still while I was going through that. 
Gretchen Steenstra: Yeah. And once you have a few, then you have some evidence 
Bobbie Racette: that other people invested in.
You're right. And then once you get the one investor though your first round, then it's easy getting investment after, right? Yeah. 'cause then you're like, 
Gretchen Steenstra: it's real. So when you were out, like you have just, so in your multifaceted CEO role is you are scaling financially, how are you balancing scaling your staff?
Back at the office who was doing the work that you were pitching? How? How did you do that? 
Bobbie Racette: It is hard because you hire based on how much money you have. We're really lean team 'cause you gotta protect your burn and we're very lean. So at the time during COVID, I only had five employees. At the end of COVID I had 60, almost 60 employees, 59 employees, and then thousands are working in the platforms, but succeed in the actual office.
And then after COVID and the technology started going and working, we [00:16:00] did a series of layoffs, and that was probably the hardest thing for me was laying people off. But we're about 30 employees now. 
Ben Muscolino: My reflection point is that, I guess instead of conforming, you really tried to force feedback out of them and keep your identity.
And I want to ask, how is your identity and owning your identity as indigenous LGBTQ plus leader informed the way you actually lead? And, and think, 
Bobbie Racette: I was really scared to talk about this story of me, my indigeneity and my queerness especially. I was really scared about that. And I was also really afraid about my parents, like ruining my mom's story as an indigenous woman that her parents were residential school survivors, and it's a really touchy subject, so I was really afraid of living that and telling it.
But once I did, and once I talked about it more. Uh, virtual gurus scaled. I'm out here talking in Japan, talking in Singapore, all these places in Portugal, [00:17:00] everywhere, and virtual gurus is just scaling and a lot of that is 'cause of the brand, which is me being the brand of the company. So I think through all of it, I've learned that if you just tell your truth, the world will open up for you.
Yeah. 
Gretchen Steenstra: And I know you, you have this announcement of changing from being the CEO and the founder. But this is common with a lot of leaders that they build a brand and then they wanna sustain it, so they hand it off to somebody. But you're the brand. What are some of the things you would advise people that you protect your brand, but you also let the next generation take the brand in a different direction?
You know what? Clearly you plan this because you wouldn't have done it, just, you know, spontaneously. 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah, no, it's been in the plan, in the works. I think the number one thing is respecting and understanding that. It's your story when you're kicking it off. But for me it's really important to that all the other people in the platform, especially all the folks that are transitioning genders, the neurodiverse community in our platform [00:18:00] to the veterans, the single stay at home moms, the retired folks that working on our platform, it's now their story.
And I want their stories to be heard more than mine now. So it's changed, but the Bobby Rossett brand is ongoing. 'cause now I'm, I've actually started a coach cast similar to this. But it's called Take the Seat with Bobby because it's about taking the seats that we were never given as women entrepreneurs.
And so that starts right away actually. 
Gretchen Steenstra: What are a few of those seats you're gonna start with? Like are there specific areas? 
Bobbie Racette: Yeah, it's gonna be pretty predominantly well known woman in Canada to start with. 'cause I'm gonna do it in person like similar to this and then we're gonna travel and do it.
Ben Muscolino: We're gonna take a quick break and just hear from one of our sponsors very quickly. If you're talking about the top meeting destinations in the country, you have to include Denver with its incredible Rocky Mountain views and 300 days of sunshine. The brand new 16th Street includes dozens of restaurants, patios, art installations, and free [00:19:00] shuttles, all within walking distance of 52 downtown hotels.
It's a lot of hotels. Very convenient. And there's the newly expanded Colorado Convention Center. The 80,000 square foot Bluebird Ballroom is a game changer along with a 20,000 square foot outdoor terrace. Come check out the mile high city where you'll meet uplifted. 
Jake Toohey: I wanted to ask about how you evolved the company.
Uh, can you talk about how the company changed one, the availability of artificial intelligence and it just becoming so wide scale? 
Bobbie Racette: AI is everywhere, right? AI is not going anywhere. And about eight months ago, we were like, you know what? It's not gonna be long before AI agents, like virtual assistants are gonna overtake actual human agents.
And so the best way to deal with that was to jump 10 steps ahead and start building our own agent. So we built an ethical 24/7 AI virtual receptionist that's actually now being built into a full AI agent. So it can do [00:20:00] demos for startups, it can do outbound SDR sales, it can do calendar booking. And so what we're gonna do is use that AI to create more work for the actual human side.
So we're combining AI and human experience together. So we launched it in January and it's flying hard, like it's probably a stickier product than our human side. But it's a cross sell opportunity. So some of our biggest clients are MasterCard, alis, and it's a huge cross sell opportunity. Get them signed up to the AI agent and then provide them a human 
Gretchen Steenstra: right.
But you said ethical. So how are you training your agent to be ethical? Because that's one of the things we've heard for underrepresented people is AI can actually hurt them because the large language models are. Flawed. And so you're just doubling down on bad data, which is why I have a love-hate relationship with ai.
So I just circled ethical. 
Bobbie Racette: Ethical AI to me is obviously is that, but one of the main things for me is how are you creating more employment versus taking away employment? And I think every single [00:21:00] company is gonna have to have AI eventually. It's just the way it's going, sadly. And so it's really on how are you building and training your ai and what is your AI able to do?
For us, we focus on making sure we're training our employees to use AI the best way that they can so that they're not going offline. You know what? Use it for content. Use it for this if you want, but don't use it for things that are not in your ability. Don't use it for that learn Still, it's ethical AI for us, but our AI is, it speaks 44 different languages and we've gotta fine tuned right now.
But we're creating employment with it. 
Gretchen Steenstra: Right? But I love that you're cross-selling, like I think that's the way they use it, the right way is you're educating people. This is where the AI is an effective tool and this is where the other staff is a good tool, right? So I think that's very important nuance that you're focusing on 
Bobbie Racette: the it can imagine if you are going into a store or a salon and you're called and it's a twenty four seven AI receptionist answers your phone.
And you [00:22:00] really need to talk to a human, press one to talk to human, then it will go to our humans, right? So there's still the work creation side of it, but the difference is we want all the businesses to put this AI on their sites and let the AI learn and go from there. 
Gretchen Steenstra: And I think people are okay with that.
You know, like we're all kind of trained to go through a couple prompts for efficiency, so I think that's fine. 
Ben Muscolino: Well, and sometimes depending on the person's style and how they want to be supported. Or maybe the situation they're in, like, I'm distracted with something else. I need to talk to a person.
Right? Versus I have my speakerphone, I'm multitasking. Let me go through the prompts. I can, you know, multitask and do that. So you're catering to situationally where they are in their journey of their day or their business, or their need or their urgency. 
Gretchen Steenstra: And I think another really important thing that you underscore is neurodiverse.
And so I think that just having all these different facets. Like you were saying, Ben, people communicate very different ways and so some types of people prefer to have a just much [00:23:00] more streamlined in ai does that. You ask it a question that answers you, they don't really need the interaction, the conversation.
They just need to get what they want. Yeah. And others need a different interaction. 
Bobbie Racette: One of the other things that human virtual assistant platforms in North America are not doing is teaching their virtual assistants to be strategic by using the ai. And that's what we're doing. So therefore we're creating more productivity.
So some would argue then you're taking away more billing time for you and it's, yeah, but our number one goal isn't the billing time. Our number one is how do we save clients time and money? So our VAs are billing, let's say 30 hours a month. I'd say, let's say they're working on one client for 30 hours.
Do you know those hours were full productivity hours based on how much work they were able to do? 
Jake Toohey: So I think we’ll take questions from the audience, if there's any, but, I did want to kind of end this. Section of the discussion with what's next for virtual gurus. 
Bobbie Racette: I think we just closed a fun round a couple days ago, so I was working on that.
It's much easier this time around. [00:24:00] I think the next thing is Virtual Gurus wants to go global, so I was just in Japan pitching Virtual Gurus on the global stage out at Expo and meeting larger partnerships. 
Ben Muscolino: I think we've got some questions coming in from the live audience here at A SAE annual in la.
Let's check 'em out. 
 Colleen Gallagher: Hey, I'm Colleen Gallagher with OnWrd & UpWrd. I, I'm sorry I'm losing my voice, but I love your story and it's really incredible, like this growth and, and how far you've come. And I know you said this is your first time here at a SAE. What do you think the association community could learn from this kind of growth and like, what could they take in, in terms of the community building?
And so many associations I talk with right now are really struggling with engaging the next generation and growing and instead of losing members, so what, what would your advice be to them? 
Bobbie Racette: That's a great question. I don't know. There's so much to it that I could answer. I think it would be is don't be afraid to learn.
Right? Learning from anybody that is in your community or the communities you're building or the people, it's [00:25:00] all about being able to learn what their needs are and then being okay with being uncomfortable with it. Like we have a massive community and every day I'm learning from them. I'm, I get on the lines and learn how they're billing by the minute and how uncomfortable that is.
Yeah, I think it's just don't be afraid to learn and take all that knowledge and soak it in and be a knowledge keeper because that's what they need. 
Ben Muscolino: So I have a final question, selfishly, right, and hopefully everyone can get something out of this, but I wanna ask this because I run multiple tech companies, I guess I one of those tech bros with the ambiguity around formality.
Uh, around DEI and I think everyone in this community believes in just being great to each other. Going beyond DEI statements to create workplaces where people can truly feel like they belong. What advice would you leave people with? And let's talk a little bit about that. 
Bobbie Racette: I think, I know like the US is going through a lot of the DEI stuff right now, and I think you should just let that make you.
Shine even more. I think you could [00:26:00] still talk DEI with talk talking DEI, right? Like it is more about showing it instead of just talking about it. So we can all still say, I choose how to have my business show up every day. I choose how to have my employees show up every day. But you could still do it underhandedly without actually saying, we're JEDI, DEI, right?
So you just gotta lead by example. If you are doing it, then everybody else is gonna follow. 
Ben Muscolino: Well, it's been a real treat to sit down with you and steal a little bit of time out of what is a very busy day already for you and a very busy time for you in business. And congrats again on your round. What round was that?
Bobbie Racette: We're gonna call it a Series A today because we're gonna work on our series B, which is about 40 million. Okay. 
Ben Muscolino: Well, I want to thank everyone again for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact [00:27:00] associations have on the economy, the US and the world around us.
I'm Ben Muscolino from The Association Podcast. Joined by Jake Tooey, Gretchen Steenstra, and a huge thanks again to Bobby Racette. Again, before we leave you, we want to thank our episode sponsor Destination Canada, and Visit Denver. For more information about our sponsors, check out the links in our show notes. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
For more information on this topic, visit Associations NOW online at associationsnow.com.
 
 

The Future Is Watching: Engaging the Next Generation of Members

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Lori Zoss Kraska, founder and CEO of Growth Owl, sits down with Brian Miller, vice president of strategic partnership at Multiview, Kimberly Tuttle, executive director of the American Institute of Architecture Students, and Gilberto Lozada Baez, AIAS board vice president, to explore new research on how students perceive associations. The conversation highlights key opportunities for associations to build stronger connections with young professionals—through targeted social media, mentorship, and small-scale in-person events. They also discuss the importance of digital fluency, university partnerships, and creating meaningful volunteer roles to foster long-term engagement and a true sense of belonging.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/HLTuvHAxkd4
This episode is sponsored by Multiview.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
[00:00:00] Lori Zoss Kraska: Welcome to episode 12 of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Lori Zoss Kraska, founder and CEO of GrowthOwl, LLC, a consultancy that empowers associations with the best practices they need to connect with Fortune 1000 companies and other large organizations for corporate sponsorship, partnership and philanthropic funding.
You also might know me as the author of The Boardroom Playbook, a Not So Ordinary Guide to Corporate Funding for Your Purpose-Driven Organization and host of my own monthly LinkedIn Live that features both association and non-endemic thought leaders who provide insight in new ways of thinking in the area of sponsorship and non-dues revenue.
You can find out more at thegrowthowl.com. But hey, enough about me. Let's take a moment to thank our episode sponsor Multiview today. We're excited to welcome Brian Miller, vice president of strategic partnerships with Multiview. [00:01:00] Also joining us today is Kimberly Tuttle, executive director of the American Institute of Architecture Students, also known as AIAS.
And Gilberto Lozada Baez, AIAS Board Vice President. They're all here to discuss key findings from new research on student perceptions of associations and how we can better engage the next generation of members. Welcome everybody to the podcast. Let's start with you, Brian. 
What influenced your team to look into this topic? 
[00:01:31] Brian Miller: Great question. Well, we always look for ways to help our associations improve their competitive advantage within their organization and any insights that we can provide along the way. It's very interesting for us 'cause we have roughly 850 association partners that span. 30 different industry verticals. Obviously it's a mixture between trade associations and professional societies and professional associations. So when we look at the professional societies, that's really what [00:02:00] we're talking about today with this topic. We conducted some research and we looking at years old problem of how do you. Engage the next generation of members, particularly in professional societies. So that's really why we commissioned this report in the first place. The other thing that was really interesting that when you look at the landscape is this is the first time we've got five generations working in the workforce, right?
You've got the traditionalists, you've got the baby boomers, you've got of course Gen X, and then you have millennials and Gen Z, and. From what we understand is this is the largest graduating class as well in, in foreseeable history that we look back at. So it's really important when you look at the.
Really important message of how do the associations look for that next generational member? How do they find them? How do they keep them throughout their professional career and their journey as members of the association? So that's really the main reason we wanted to, to talk about this topic today and really understand the importance of content and [00:03:00] education when it comes to looking at those different member segments.
And as we continue to talk. In this discussion, we're gonna find that young professionals, students, recent grads, and particularly early in their career, they have different needs, right? From a membership perspective, it's really important to understand this segment and how as an association you engage with those younger members and be able to offer them what they need and what they're looking for in an association.
So that's really the main reason why we did all of this. 
[00:03:29] Lori Zoss Kraska: That's great, and I want to delve in a bit more, Brian, into the research. A sizable amount of this next generation, based on what you found knows about associations, but only about a quarter, really understand the benefits. What do you think causes this gap and how do associations go about closing that?
[00:03:47] Brian Miller: I think the biggest thing is the networking aspect. You look at the younger generation, young professionals, they've grown up in this digital environment and they've really made a lot of their connections and their networking through all of their other [00:04:00] social engagements. They are familiar with associations.
We found that through that research, 85% of them are familiar with associations and what they do in respective industries and professions. But really it's looking at the value of that association for them when you're looking at what their needs are. Specifically, they're looking at career placement. They're looking at jobs. How do you help me create resumes? How do you help me create strategies for looking for jobs and all of that, how to interview, things like that. So they're really looking for those kind of things. And so that was really one of the drivers that we found in terms of that gap between.
Being aware of the association, but understanding the value that associations provide. I think they understand that. Obviously associations represent those key things that they do, right? They're out there to promote their industry or their profession. They're out there to educate that industry or profession, and then they're out there to advocate on behalf of that industry, or that profession. They learn that through job fairs, through what they learn for in their coursework and their [00:05:00] universities. But it's really about the associations taking the understanding that what their young professionals are looking for is career assistance, job placement. Skills training. Those are the key things that we found that they're really the hot buttons for them.
So from an association perspective, to increase that value gap, that's really the areas that we need to make sure that they're focused on, is looking for ways that they can really engage those young professionals through those skills training, through helping them with their. Careers and through helping them with interviews and job placements and things like that.
So that's really where the gap that we saw. But the good news is though, this is a great opportunity for the associations to really become the driver of this. This gap is very fixable and it's very. Easily done by the associations to look at their member segments and understand that they each have different values along the way and what the value is for them by being an association member.
And then long term, obviously that's gonna create a membership journey. [00:06:00] So if you can engage those young professionals, meet them where they are, be able to fulfill their needs, and that's gonna make for a better member as they progress in their careers, and then obviously things are gonna become more important to them going forward.
And it's the things that we talked about, the advocacy that the association does, the education that they provide, and well as being able to engage the different generations. When we talked about those five generations as well, and I'll just leave it with this. This is a perfect example of why associations need to look at not just a one fits all membership strategy, right?
You really need to understand those different segments that are represented within your membership and then create different value propositions along the way. So hopefully this will help engage them where they are, and then as they progress in their journey, the association's gonna provide additional value and more long-term value going forward.
[00:06:51] Lori Zoss Kraska: I love that you said that it's really the association's responsibility to empower themselves to realize that they need to meet [00:07:00] students and younger folks where they are. I think that's so important because maybe a different mentality in the past would've been, it's really up to the student or up to the young professional to research us.
For them to figure out what the value is and no, we have to turn this around. I love that really, that you've not only talked about that, but your research coincides with that. So I think that's excellent. Excellent. You know, Gilberto, I wanna throw it over to you. You're a former student at the University of Monterey and now a young professional and board member, so congratulations on all your achievements thus far.
What was your impression of associations before joining AIAS? And what prompted you to want to get involved and become a member? 
[00:07:45] Gilberto Lozada Baez: Thank you for saying that. And let me start with the second part of your question because I think you're gonna be a lot more insightful into what I was thinking about organizations.
I remember being in first semester of college, I was just joining to [00:08:00] starting at the study architecture school and they, it's very common for student groups to have these meetings where they try to get new people to recruit new members. And I remember sitting at the auditorium. Hearing to the AIAS group that was at my university, talking about the organization, about what the a IS does, its impact, its reach, the networking opportunities.
And it was a lot of an aspirational thing for me because I remember looking up at that leadership team and thinking I want to be in their place. I wanna be able to talk about me being part of a community that has such an impact, that has that reach globally, that I can say that I am part of that type of a community.
Interestingly enough, even though I was very inspired by that conversation, I didn't actually become a member of the organization until my third year in school. So it took me a while to actually become a member. To start getting involved with the a IS chapter at my school and [00:09:00] at large. And I think that the reason why that happened initially is because there were many little barriers, but what helped me go through them is that the leadership team at my school that was representing the organization at large really took the time to have a conversation with me.
Walk me through the details of what it meant to be involved with the organization, how to actually get my membership and how to join the team, and really just collaborate with everyone that was at my local level. The reason why I'm saying all this is because it really goes back to the first part of your question, which is what did I think about organizations?
And I think that my impression back then was that organizations were important and very impactful. They always felt somewhat alien or distant in a way. It was like really hard to access the organization and become a part of it. And even though I was really interested, there were so many barriers to it, little [00:10:00] barriers, but they all added up eventually and they made me unsure if my time, because I was in school, I didn't have a lot of time either.
My energy, the money that I would spend in my membership would be actually worth the investment because of course there were a lot of. More important or direct things that were a little less foreign and that felt like they guaranteed my success and my career or my education. And I think it's safe to say that once I got involved with the AIAS, it all became a lot clearer and I developed this sense of belonging, but it's also really important for students as well.
To the point that I'm now vice president of the organization. But yeah, I think it's really important to see how throughout my journey, a lot of those things that the report for Multiview talks about this gap between students and the awareness of the value that organizations offered. Definitely impacted my journey.
And it was because of that engagement with people and with the organization at the local level that I was able to overcome it and actually get involved. 
[00:10:59] Lori Zoss Kraska: So [00:11:00] Gilberto, I have a follow up here. I know if I have an association leader and I'm listening to you, I'm listening to you very carefully. You said something about barriers and I think that's something that associations would wanna hear more about.
Would you be open to talking about one or two of the barriers that you referenced earlier? 
[00:11:17] Gilberto Lozada Baez: Of course. I think one of the most important ones, especially for students and younger professionals, is cost barriers. Yeah. I think that is one of the more important ones, and we're all aware of it. The other one that I would reference is time availability, especially with my experience being an architecture.
Sport is a very demanding profession. And so anytime that I would have available, I would cherish it very much and try to use it to whatever would bring me the most value and success in my future. And probably another one is familiarity. Or this idea of perhaps Tism that I would mention, because a lot of the times it feels like organizations are a closed off [00:12:00] group that is not really welcoming to other perspectives.
I can honestly say now being a lot more acquainted with organizations and having been on the board of other organizations as well, that is rarely the goal because we all as organizations, want to get as much members and as much involvement as we can. But there is definitely that barrier of not being acquainted with something and being slightly intimidating that is present for students and potential prospect, new members.
[00:12:27] Lori Zoss Kraska: Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that, again, that's gonna be really eye-opening to a lot of associations that are listening, especially from the point of view of a  young professional like yourself. Kimberly, I want to move over to you for a moment. Many students are graduating with limited real world experience and unclear next steps. It's a crazy world out there. We just don't know what's gonna happen. But how are associations, especially those with student branches or in your case, an entire student-based organization, uniquely positioned [00:13:00] to support that transition for young people? 
[00:13:03] Kimberly Tuttle: Yeah, that's a great question.
So the AIAS. We were founded in the fifties and we branched out and became our own organization and nonprofit in the early eighties. So we're hitting our 70th anniversary. And the sole purpose, our mission is advancing leadership, design and service among architecture students. But. I think a lot of the work that we've done, and I just stepped into this role about a year ago, but I did work for the organization for four or five years, several years ago, really focusing on partnerships and so.
AIAS, I think, is uniquely positioned to bridge that gap between education and practice. And so we honestly, a lot of our programs are built on mentorship, internships, and building leadership skills to help transition them into practice. Because we're student [00:14:00] led, our program is. Deeply relevant because we're not guessing what the students need when we know what they need because they tell us.
Our board is 70% made up of students who are actively in school and are the ones who are guiding our efforts, talking about what they need. And so we look at things like portfolio reviews, design competitions, career preparation workshops, and we ensure that our students don't face that. What's next moment by themselves, right?
They have this community that is a strength of our organization. And then when we engage with partners, because we're associations, we're nonprofits. Most of us rely on partnerships. We talk with our partners about how. Our members are not actively buying, they're not currently consumers in our profession.
So we have a different pitch to our partners, and that's really let's build brand awareness while we develop content and career content career programs, leveraging your [00:15:00] brand. And for example, several years ago we had this one. Elevator company that was one of our bigger partners. And we use that to put together an elevator pitch competition.
And so we leverage our partners by building these career preparation programs to help build that relationship and build the gap and bridge the gap between education practice. So when they graduate and they're ready to set foot in the workforce, they have a lot of the softer skills that professionals are looking for when they hire young career.
[00:15:34] Lori Zoss Kraska: Kimberly, let me just say, as someone who works in the corporate sponsorship and corporate partnership arena that you found an elevator company to sponsor the elevator pitch competition makes me so excited and so happy. That's wonderful. Brian, I want to send it back to you here. We've talked about young professionals and what they need and what they want, and they expect from associations.
Did your research reveal the best channels to connect with them? [00:16:00] 
[00:16:00] Brian Miller: Yeah. I think it's no surprise that to the best channel is social media.  
[00:16:04] Lori Zoss Kraska: Yeah. 
[00:16:04] Brian Miller: And this kind of goes back to thinking about the associations and their identity. When the associations think about their identity and who their competition is.
It's very interesting 'cause most associations will think, okay, my competition is this other association that is in my space or in my industry or profession. It's really changing. Competition now is really evolving for associations. Their competitors now are the social platforms. I think LinkedIn is one of the largest competitors to associations, particularly when it comes to young professionals and they're looking at.
These resources through these social channels, LinkedIn's a given, right? It's one of the best places for career guidance. Career resources, helping you further your career. It obviously changes with different industries. Obviously the engagement is different with LinkedIn, but it is still a very important and viable channel and with some of the new add-ons that LinkedIn offers particularly.
Perhaps the [00:17:00] LinkedIn newsletters is a good example to, it's fairly recent edition. Associations can really utilize that, where they can say, okay, let's create a LinkedIn newsletter channel that's specific for young professionals, students for graduate students, and then maybe a different newsletter that's attacking a different segment of their membership as well with different content and so forth.
But LinkedIn, of course, as we said, is a given. The other big channel, of course, for young professionals is by far Instagram. That was what we. Saw in our results. And that really is understandable. When you look at Instagram, it's more of this edutainment, right? So it's education mixed with entertainment and being able to create short form content that's really impactful and really hitting those key topics that we found through the research that are important for young professionals.
The career skills training, job placements, interview and resume building, things like that. So it's. Important to know how to utilize those channels, creating the right kind of [00:18:00] content for that channel. When you think about associations, their competition, are any organizations out there that are competing for their members' attention?
And when you look at young members. You're looking at Instagram, right? Instagram is a huge platform that they're engaging with their peers as well as getting information and content in that kind of a format. And what is Instagram like? It likes reels. It likes carousel type of content. Very short, impactful type things.
So when you're looking at your education strategy for your different member segments, really understand that. To use the different platforms in the right format and in the right context. If you think yourself like a media company instead of an association, it's almost very similar. You look at the Netflix model, for example, so Netflix has an audience or any other.
A company out there, media organizations, we'll just use Netflix as an example. So they've got an audience and they get that audience because they're creating content specific to that audience. And that audience wants that. They have the distribution channels, right? [00:19:00] They have the distribution channels through their streaming services, through other pay services that they might offer.
And then they have the revenue side. There's two forms of revenue. They have the free model. Which is, we'll give you the content for free, but then it's subsidized by advertising, or it's more of the membership model where you pay to subscribe as a member, and then you get that content after that through your subscription.
If you look at your association, very similar. You've got. The audience. That's your membership. You've got the content. It's all the education that you provide, and all various ways that you disseminate that. You have the channels, your website, your LMS, all of the various forms, all your social media, all those channels for distribution of that content.
And then you have the monetization through your membership dues, as well as through the corporate sponsorships and the ways that you can engage your corporate sponsors. Lori, Kimberly, you both hit on this. So corporate sponsors are really evolving to where they're becoming more thought leaders now too.
That's a huge thing because now they're not just selling products or services. They're engaging with your [00:20:00] members, and if you utilize your sponsors to really engage them with your membership as thought leaders, then they can become even more important in the whole strategy of the association going forward.
It'll give them more opportunities to spend money with you. And be able to utilize those in all those different channels. So to sum it up, you know, it's the right content in the right format, through the right channels and in the right time and context. So from a young professional standpoint, being able to meet them where they are, like we talked about before, is really important.
So utilizing your social media and understanding that this is where they're engaging. A third area outside of LinkedIn and an Instagram that we found really interesting is. Young professionals are also utilizing Reddit because Reddit's an anonymous channel that they can go in, look up a topic, and be able to engage with other anonymous members to really talk about things and be very specific.
[00:21:00] So when you think about what's the competition. With Reddit are your community pages. Every association has community pages that they utilize for their members, so their members can engage and so forth. So there's a gap there as well. The young professionals are probably using Reddit more than they are using the association's community pages, so it's important to understand that channel as well, because Reddit is a source of information that they're going to also.
So look at. All the various topics within your industry or profession that are happening out there through those various subreddits. See what's important, see what they're engaging with there, and then be able to incorporate that into your strategy when you're looking at your different membership strategies and how you're getting your content out there.
But again, everything in its right place. 
[00:21:45] Lori Zoss Kraska: Brian, I think this information is so valuable because, I gotta be honest, I know associations that don't even have an Instagram account. And basically your research shows that young professionals are utilizing Instagram for finding career [00:22:00] information, for getting to connect with mentors, potentially.
There's a whole world out there of how young folks are utilizing Instagram. In ways that maybe other generations don't realize. So a call to action today. If anything, if you're an association and you don't even have an Instagram account, get online and create your Instagram account and get started. And I can imagine too that there are associations out there that.
Don't even know what Reddit is. It's a new concept to them. So I just think this information and what you have in your research is so valuable, and I really appreciate you, again, you bringing this to the forefront. But Kimberly, I wanna come back to you because this idea of digital fluency comes up a lot in this report.
What does it mean for associations to really adapt to social platforms and how is AIAS specifically addressing this as well? 
[00:22:50] Kimberly Tuttle: That's a great question, and as Brian alluded to, it's not just being on social media. So first off, if you don't have a Instagram, definitely got one, [00:23:00] but it's understanding where your members are and being good at creating content that works for them.
So it means understanding the language of each platform and using it to tell your story in a way that invites participation. For us, it looks like. Very interactive content telling, student stories, student spotlights. We have a chapter Leader of the Month feature. We have a chapter of the month feature. I think last fall we highlighted a lot of our global chapters to share more about the work that they're doing.
We have live takeovers when we're at our conferences and we use our platforms to celebrate. Not just architecture, but really the people behind it. Gilberto is our social media guru at the moment, and we're constantly looking at how our posts perform. Are there good times? What is the most engaging and how can we continue to skill up our social media channels?
But it's also not just where but how. So one of the really unique [00:24:00] advantages we have is that we. Have the next generation. These are our members, and so we get to experiment. They're using, as Brian mentioned, they're using the social platforms in ways that are very different from previous generations in both Good and.
Potentially negative ways. We also have a lot of conversations about data and, and I'm not talking about data in this terms of analytics, but where are you getting your information? Is it accurate? Is it right? We have a lot of conversations like, where did you learn that? And it's, oh, I saw it on TikTok, are we.
Having conversations about misinformation, those are pieces that we have to talk about is because where is this next generation digesting and receiving their important kind of news and data like that. So we regularly check in with our board about what platforms are actually relevant. Another conversation, I keep bringing this up, and Gilberto, we keep having this conversation, but for example, I [00:25:00] keep asking.
Should we be on TikTok? Is that where we need to be? TikTok is huge, but when we've had those conversations, Gilberto and the rest of the board is, that's not really where students are looking for that professional or academic inspiration. That's not the type of engagement that happens over on TikTok. So instead of chasing.
Trends like that, we really try and stay in intentional focusing on the platforms and the content that match the message and meet our members where they are. We're also doing a lot of work in exploring what other similar organizations are doing. So for example, NSLC, which is the National Student Leadership Conference.
Their Instagram channels are a great place for us to find inspiration because they are very member centric, and so that's something that we continue to aspire to be, and so we use. That research to help us continue to dig in because NSLC is actually the generation [00:26:00] before us, right? Or maybe not generation, but they're high school members, right?
And so as we're looking at how they engage with high school students, we start to think about, okay, how can we leverage some of the things that they're doing to continue to bring impactful member-focused engagement to our channels? 
[00:26:19] [AD READ]
Lori Zoss Kraska: Let's take a quick break from our conversation for a word from our episode sponsor.
Multiview is the leading B2B digital marketing agency and trusted advertising partner for associations proudly serving 850 plus partners for 25 years. There are NOCO purpose-built solutions, help associations engage and grow membership. Connect members with vendors through digital channels and unlock new streams of non-dues revenue.
As an extension of your team, they manage digital advertising sales on your behalf, freeing up staff time and resources so you can focus on what matters most, advancing your mission and serving your members. Learn more at [00:27:00] multiview.com/association. 
[END AD READ]
Kimberly. As I think about some of the association executives that might be listening, they might be thinking, this all sounds really good.
The research is there. This is amazing, but I need tips on internal buy-in. I'm working with a chief marketing officer that just isn't a hundred percent sure I should be spending all this time on Instagram or on Reddit. Do you have any tips that you might be able to provide to bridge the gap between maybe a person or a thought?
Internally that isn't completely bought in to spending time on these socials. 
[00:27:35] Kimberly Tuttle: As I, I often tease my officers that if they leave me alone with the social channels, we might get something that they don't want. Oh, I 
[00:27:43] Lori Zoss Kraska: Love it. 
[00:27:44] Kimberly Tuttle: I'm not even going to talk about the platforms that we shouldn't be on, but I am very well aware of my abilities and understanding of where social is and.
I guess for me it's just I'm going to struggle when [00:28:00] Gilberto saves us because we don't actually have a social media team. We are a very thin lean team, and so for us, we all do all of the work so. I would say for anyone looking to get upper buy-in, I would show the data, talk about how maybe do a test run.
So I used to work for a large architecture firm and they had a very robust social media team, and I learned a lot from her too. Whereas if you are looking to. Try and test things out. Stories and reels are much easier to do that because they don't live on your feed, right? They don't live on that landing page.
And so those are more opportunities to explore what works and what doesn't. And so what I would say is. Make sure you're staying by your brand guidelines. Make sure you're meeting the needs of the organization. But feel free to try and experiment in stories and reels, especially in Instagram because they disappear after 24 hours and you can gather the data [00:29:00] and then take that data to go have conversations.
 
[00:29:03] Brian Miller: I completely agree with everything you're saying Kimberly, we found the same thing. First of all, TikTok was not very impactful in the data results at all, but Instagram was. And when you look at the algorithms of Instagram and what it likes, stories, it likes those reels, and that's how it measures the engagement and that's really how things get promoted.
So everything you said was spot on. I will add one other thing too that is interesting that we've just seen in the B2B media side at Multiview. We've been working B2B media as a company for 25 years and one of the things that we're finding that's an interesting new trend is that the influencers usually are a B2C type of content.
We're now finding that influencer content is really creeping over into the B2B segment as well. So something to think about as an association executive as you're developing your social media strategies, and particularly with Instagram and those type of platforms where it's very edutainment type of content.[00:30:00] 
It might be a perfect opportunity to look within your community, your profession, and find influencers that you think could be very impactful and that can really help you reach these young professionals because they're already seeing that influencer marketing in all of their other contexts as a consumer and as a.
As just that people of that generation. So that's another interesting trend. I didn't even realize that until I was talking to some of our other agency folks that we work with, and they very much brought up the fact that influencer marketing is becoming a key thing in B2B as well. So something for associations to think about, but that's great stuff, Kim.
[00:30:35] Lori Zoss Kraska: Gilberto, I actually want to give you the last word on this because I would love to get your perspective. If you were speaking to an association executive that might be a little hesitant about utilizing new platforms like Instagram or Reddit, what would your advice to them be? 
[00:30:51] Gilberto Lozada Baez: That is a good question. I think it's important to understand that culture plays a significant role in how we're marketing [00:31:00] to our potential members as well.
Yeah, and it's also about culture. There's this element of. What the professional sphere is. But when you're talking about younger professionals and students, there's an added element to it of that student or young professional experience that also plays into how you're marketing towards, and then how you're.
Getting that message to them. So I guess that would be my advice. Understanding that there are different components to that and that really that is something that you can use to understand how to better engage with them and how to get that feedback from potential new members, especially with younger audiences.
[00:31:36] Lori Zoss Kraska: That's perfect. And Gilberto, why I still have you on the mic. Let's talk a little about events. The report also talks about the need for in-person, especially smaller scale events. What is the role for in-person events, do you think, and do you have any recommendations for associations? 
[00:31:53] Gilberto Lozada Baez: Yes, with the AIAS, it's interesting because we have an international presence.
We're in over [00:32:00] 24 countries, and that makes it really hard for us to get in-person engagement with our members, even though we would love to, but it's a little bit tricky. So I think something that helps us is that within the structure of our organization, we have baked in layers of engagement, and that includes in-person engagement.
That sort of ties into the whole way we operate as. Organization, and when I'm talking about that structure, just for a little bit of exposition, I guess it's that the app is composed of chapters at universities and so that is the first tier beyond the individual students can engage with the teams at their school, and that is a great way to get in person and a little bit more casual engagement with the organization as well.
Beyond that, we also have sometimes several chapters in a same city or within hours of each other. And so that creates opportunities for a bit of a larger scope engagement where [00:33:00] students travel to, I don't know, nearby firms to do a firm tour or local architectural landmarks that they want to visit and explore.
That is another great opportunity to get that. And then we can start moving up the ranks. And we have our quad and regional engagements. Our chapters are grouped in regions within the US and internationally, and they get the opportunity to engage with our directors and with other people within their larger regional location to get that experience as well.
And finally, we have the national and international component where we have our. Conferences and other types of programming. So what I'm trying to say here is that yes, we have in-person options for our students starting from the chapter level to the national, international level, and it's a peer structure.
But what that allows us to do is to have this bottom up structure that informs what we do as an organization at large. [00:34:00] And the way that I try to think about it is that it helps to create this sense of belonging. Which is very important for students and emerging professionals as they explore their future really and beyond that sense of belonging.
It also gives them this agency and it empowers them to engage with a larger community in a different approach, like thinking about how we're marketing towards them. I would also say that this tiered structure helps it so that out of sight is not out of mind necessarily because they always have someone in their near.
Vicinity that they can talk to or approach if they have any questions about the organization. And so this is how the AIAS operates in general. What I would say as aps of advice is that sort of what you were saying earlier, Brian, it's very important to meet students where they are and young career professionals as well.
But you that engagement and that opportunity to meet them where they are, to empower the approach [00:35:00] that the organization takes. To engage or to operate at a larger scale and really using these small scale efforts to empower the large scale operation of the organization as well. 
[00:35:11] Lori Zoss Kraska: Kimberly, did you want to add on to that?
[00:35:14] Kimberly Tuttle: In 22 and 23 as we were coming out of COVID too, especially, we had surveyed our members and top importance in AIAS member benefits was that networking, but a quarter rated in-person events as like their second choice, the second reason most impactful member benefits. So, and I don't know if that's because we were coming outta COVID, but that definitely is something that we have not seen.
Ticked down in the past couple years, it's only ticked up. And so as we get back into play in our in-person events, we're definitely seeing an uptick in our numbers, slowly getting back to where our pre COVID numbers were. But the students had identified that in both years as like the top two priorities of why they wanted to be a [00:36:00] member of the organization.
[00:36:01] Lori Zoss Kraska: That's great. And I think it goes back to Gilberto's point about creating that sense of belonging and community in these events. And Brian, I want to talk to you about that. In terms of larger scale events, how can associations include young professionals and larger scale events in things like annual meetings and conferences?
[00:36:21] Brian Miller: Yeah. And boy, that was just great insight from Gilberto and Kimberly. It really ties into the data that we're seeing in the report and one of the other key takeaways outside of this awareness value gap that we talked about. And then the second big takeaway was. The digital fluency that associations need to have to engage with the younger professionals.
The third thing that we found was exactly what the both the Gilberto and Kimberly were talking about. It's the revival and the return of in real life. I don't know if it's because of post COVID, but I think a lot of it's just younger professionals want to engage with their peers. They want to engage in these small [00:37:00] scale opportunities, right?
If happened, Gilberto mentions so many of them, but it, these. Local meetups, that's where they're networking. All these different like-minded peer related discussions and how those are taking place. They can happen online as we see. Obviously it's happening as we talked about with Reddit and all the various subreddit sub communities that are out there.
But again, it's also happening. In real life, locally from the bottom up, starting in their chapters, in their organizations, in their schools, in their universities, in their young, professional career, networking that they're doing in the various ways. So I think if associations can replicate those small scale events in their large scale events, that's gonna be a really key thing going forward from that engagement.
One of the things that we found out in the research as well is that the students. And young professionals, when they go to these annual conferences or these larger scale events, they get lost and they get scared. They [00:38:00] internalize, and they don't network. They don't engage because it's just too much, and a lot of the content that's even happening in there is maybe content that they're not even interested.
Again, when we go back and think about what we talked about earlier and what their needs are. Maybe those large scale events aren't really hitting those topics for those young professionals, but I think the biggest thing is that they just feel like it's lost. So there's different things that associations can do to bring that small scale structure to their large events where they can replicate those meetups, right?
Where you engage the peers within their community together in these small scale type opportunities within the large scale events. I think another thing too is obviously mentorship and coaching is a huge thing that they want as well. What better way to engage your corporate sponsors to be those thought leaders like we talked about?
Get them engaged in these small scale events that are happening within the larger events so that they can not only have their peer discussions, but they can also have some coaching and [00:39:00] mentorship type opportunities with other businesses that are out there in the profession that can offer guidance to them.
And obviously that creates networking for them and when they're looking for possible career placement as well. The other thing I think would be interesting to do is when you think about all the cities that you go to for your large scale events, for your annual conferences, maybe connect with local universities, colleges, trade schools, whatever that may be, depending on your profession or your trade.
And try to recruit volunteers, students from those universities to actually work with you as a volunteer at your annual conference, for example. 'cause now. They're not scared. They actually have a role within the entire scheme of things. They can actually be very involved from a volunteer standpoint, which is gonna create those connections for them.
They're gonna meet people, they're gonna have those networking opportunities, they're gonna have the ability to work with their peers, and they're also getting that sense of belonging. That Hill Albert so talked about [00:40:00] where they're feeling important. They're not just attending, they're actually participating in the event as a volunteer.
And it's a great thing for associations because the more. Staff that you can have that you're not paying, for lack of a better word phrase. It offers more resources for the association to be able to do some of these additional things. But I think that would be a great. Opportunity for associations to look at different things like that for the cities that they're in and how they can utilize the resources within that city, through the local colleges and universities to be able to recruit students to volunteer, introduce them to the association, and then they can start seeing some of the benefits early on before they even join.
So that's one of the insights that I think we gained from the data. But again, this really ties in with everything Kimberly and Gilberto's been talking about in real life from their organizational perspective. So it's great. 
[00:40:51] Lori Zoss Kraska: I love this. "The return to in real life," Brian. I think Multiview should brand that, trademark it, copyright it, because [00:41:00] I think there could be something there.
But to bridge off of that, Brian, I thought about, I have to brag in my hometown a bit here. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, where the A SAE annual was last year. Destination Cleveland, which is a local nonprofit organization, was highly involved in the A SAE 2024 conference and. I was speaking to a representative from Destination Cleveland and she was telling me about the number of young people, basically those under 30 years old who have volunteered to come out for this event to direct people where they need to go or recommend places to eat, or what's a great place just to go kick back and relax.
And so what you're saying makes complete sense connecting to the that sense of. Philanthropy and community engagement is so important. And my gosh, associations are built to do that. Absolutely. It's just perfect. So Kimberly, how do you work with the American Institute of Architects to help young professionals transition from student [00:42:00] to professional membership as we move to membership conversation now?
 
[00:42:04] Kimberly Tuttle: Yeah, sure. So we've had a long history and partnership with the AIA, and it's both collaborative and strategic. So we work together to build a strong pipeline from students professional. By starting early, we introduce our students to the broader architecture ecosystem. Through a lot of regular exposure to not only a i a, but what we call the alliance organizations, which are the six organizations that really lead and direct the profession as a whole.
And the six organizations are regular attendees and partners at our events. So they don't just show up, they actively engage the students through volunteer opportunities, mentorship and insights into future roles in the profession. But when we think about partnering with our. Professional associations, we like to partner in meaningful initiative.
We will connect our students with practitioners in real ways with the AIA. They [00:43:00] Ask sponsor a program called Crit Scholar. We have Crit Journal, which is our student architectural journal. That students write the articles, they do the research, and we put that out once a year. But we also have a program called Crit Scholar, which is really about research.
So for architecture students specifically, we usually end our education with a one or two year thesis. Portfolio. And so the students will get paired with a mentor in the profession, someone who is interested in that type of research, and will pair them and they will have that mentor to help provide perspective, create connection for them throughout their research project.
They also get a little stipend, which. Is helpful for any student, but what that's really helpful is that they are really getting paired and introduced with someone actively in the profession who is interested in the type of research that they're doing. So they're making those connections early, which may lead to that job opportunity later down the road.
Through our Freedom by [00:44:00] Design program, which is a program where students tackle real world challenges in their local communities. So it's not necessarily a national program, but it is a local chapter program. The students we've partnered with ncarb, which is our licensure. They facilitate licensure and the students gain hands-on experience working with clients, working alongside licensed professionals and seeing the tangible impact of their design work.
So it's a really great opportunity for students to going back to our mission leadership design and that service component where students get to give back to their communities, partner with local architects, and also continue to build that network for them. We often remind students, and like I said, I worked in a large firm.
It's not just what you know, but it is who you know, and our job is really to help open the doors, to make those introductions, to connect them with leaders, and to give them a seat at the table. We are very clear with the students that they have to do the [00:45:00] work to get in and earn that interview. But as we partner with our professional associations as they move into a contributing member of the profession, we see that transition from student to professional as more of a continuum.
It's not necessarily a handoff, it's really ensuring the profession stays connected. To the, what the students are doing, but that they're aware, they know what is important and impactful to students because they are important. And I think going back to what Brian was saying, it's really great to engage with students in those manners.
But I think, I've been in this space for about 10 years now, and early on I was on some panels for some conferences, and I would have a student on the panel with me, right? We're in a presentation, we're in a session, and the student would be. So nervous, and I looked at this one individual and I looked at her and I was like.
You are here for a reason. Your voice is extremely important. Employers and [00:46:00] practitioners want to know what you think and why you think that. So dig into that, lean into that, and don't be afraid to be your authentic self, because that is going to be more impactful than saying things that you think people wanna hear.
We actually, you were there for a reason and we are that voice of the students and so that's why we try and make sure we are where not everyone else can be, so that we are advocating for our members. 
[00:46:29] Lori Zoss Kraska: Kimberly, I can imagine maybe some that are listening to us today or watching are thinking, wow, Kimberly's really got her act together and they've got a really good system.
Wow. I'm a little overwhelmed. So what advice would you give to somebody that just is even just starting to have a conversation about how do we help young professionals go from the student mindset of membership into more professional membership? Where do we even begin? What's your advice on that? 
[00:46:57] Kimberly Tuttle: Yeah, so it's funny, we were actually on a call this [00:47:00] morning with our counterparts in the UK to share lessons that we've learned.
Oh good. Because they have a free student membership. So there are more of the professional association, but they have a free student membership, and they wanted to know some of the things that we were doing to help give greater meaning to that student membership that they have. And so I think the first thing is, if you already have that student base.
Maybe you have a free student membership. Start talking with them, start reaching out. Focus groups are a really great opportunity to hear what they are saying, what they are wanting to know, and understanding where they're digesting and getting their content. So I think first off, start there. Second of all, I think if you don't have that student membership, I think.
Start with your local university, right? Reach out to that program. If they have a program with your professional degree in it. Reach out, see if you can go in and just talk to the students. I still go back and talk with my high [00:48:00] school about the technical education. I do that probably. Once every other year and learn what the students are looking for.
Why are you thinking, why do you wanna go in this career path? What do you think the profession looks like? I think that is also like myth busting 1 0 1 right there, right? When you ask students what they think, oh, what do you wanna do with your career? And they say, for architecture, I'm getting into the nitty gritty, but I wanna do residential or commercial, and it's okay.
But commercial architecture, there's so many things you can do. And so I think for us it's also about awareness and exposure, and just that exposure can help students understand better where they fit in that profession. And that's something that we are really trying to be more intentional around is the educational exposure.
Of students, if they have a better understanding of how they fit into your profession, they might hit the ground running much faster than someone who's still floundering. So I would say. [00:49:00] Go back to your universities if they have a program that is related to your discipline, and just go talk to them. Ask them, what do you guys wanna know about?
What do you think the profession looks like? How can I help you? I think those are great opportunities to start to dig in, and then maybe eventually the membership or the engagement will grow from there. But I think that's a great first step, is to just go talk to the students, go right to the universities and offer up your services.
I will go and give a career portfolio 101 section where people reach out and say, Hey, can you come talk to our students about what the profession and practitioners like to see when they're reviewing portfolios? And I'll go, and I will be very blunt. I'm like, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.
This I would love. This is a great example. And so I think just by engaging and showing you are there as a resource is a great first step. 
[00:49:54] Lori Zoss Kraska: I just wanna say that this type of engagement with universities and other type of [00:50:00] educational partners, corporate sponsors love this because they are actually in the same boat as associations.
They are trying to engage young people and young professionals to get excited about their specific industry or their workforce. So when I have associations asking me, Lori, what are corporations sponsoring right now? What are they interested in? The number one thing still is anything around engaging young professionals to get excited about what we're doing as a career path, and that's something you share.
So really you can take some of this work that Kimberly's talking about with outreach. You could even potentially put some sort of formalized program around it and find a sponsor for it. The opportunities are, unless I just had to go down that road, 'cause you're playing the sponsorship. Place sandbox here.
All right, so Gilberto, let's go back to you as a student based member organization. You talked a little about this earlier, but can you talk more about the A IAS unique leadership structure that's comprised of both [00:51:00] students and recent graduates? 
[00:51:02] Gilberto Lozada Baez: Of course, I think Kimberly just gave a pretty detailed and accurate spot on description of what our organization does to engage this young leaders and to really empower them to go about their journey in architecture and just their leadership journey in general.
But basically, we are a student led organization, so not only do we have our student members, we also have our local chapter leaders. Our regional directors, our committee chairs and members, and our board of directors that are all comprised of students. So that is a great way to have that untapped, unfiltered feedback from the younger generations about the profession and what they want to see in the future, and to use it to have these conversations with other industry partners and allied organizations as well.
Like you were mentioning, we also have alumni that sort of tie into this entire piece because [00:52:00] it helps us see what's happening, not just while they're in school, but also once they have graduated and they're joining the profession and what really their education and their interests pan out to be in the future.
And so what we do as an organization, in a way, is to, the way I see it, compliment their education to find those resources and those opportunities that sometimes are not being. Offered by their global school programs or that they could find elsewhere and bring in it a little bit closer to them so that they can explore what they want their future career to look like, what the opportunities are for them, and to empower them to make an impact and to shape the profession into what they want to see.
The way that I see it is that students and young professionals are really an equal part of this collaborative ecosystem. That shapes our profession, right? We have an architecture, what is globally allied organizations, and they are [00:53:00] basically every realm of architecture that could be involved. They're talking about the professionals themselves, about researchers.
We're talking about accreditation, and everyone wants to hear from students. And so in a way, what we do through this structure is empower them to understand that, like Kim was saying, their voices are important. Everyone in this profession that wants to make a change, wants to hear from them, and so giving them those platforms so that they can speak up and be heard.
I think that's what is in the DNA of the AI S that empowers student leaders and young professionals as well. 
[00:53:35] Lori Zoss Kraska: And I think that is the perfect place for us to end today. I wanna thank everyone for listening to this episode of Associations Now Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world.
Again, we'd like to thank our episode sponsor Multiview. For [00:54:00] more information about our sponsor, check out their link in our show notes. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on this topic, visit associations now online at associationsnow.com.
 

Securing Identity: What Associations Need to Know About Verifiable Credentials

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host David Coriale, president of DelCor and host of the Reboot IT podcast, talks with Elena Dumitrascu, CTO of Credivera, and Tim McCreight, CEO of TaleCraft Security. Together, they explore how secure, verifiable credentials can reduce identity fraud, validate professional qualifications, and strengthen cybersecurity. Drawing on real-world use cases in industries like healthcare and safety, the discussion highlights the growing importance of global standards and the role associations can play in adopting these technologies to build trust and security in digital spaces.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/y5RzrCUUTzU
This episode is sponsored by Credivera.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
[00:00:00] David Coriale: Hello everyone. This is Dave Corelle, president of DelCor and host of the 501 C technology podcast, Reboot IT, and I am excited to be guest hosting today. We've talked about this technology before on Reboot and I'm so happy to be talking about it again 'cause I think this community needs to talk about this more.
And I have two experts with me who are going to do 90% of the talking. I have Tim McCreight and also Elena Dumitrascu. I want  to welcome you and also have you introduce yourselves. Let's start with you, Elena. 
[00:00:34] Elena Dumitrascu: Thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure. I'm the co-founder and CTO of Credivera. We are a technology company that supports associations with verifiable credentials, secure identity, and secure certifications for their constituents.
I got into this business because I saw over and over again how difficult it is to prove someone's identity from a workforce perspective. The long compliance issues [00:01:00] that come from that, and really some of the fraud that. Sort of seeps in as well. Again, really happy to be here and to talk about this topic.
[00:01:08] David Coriale:  Awesome. Thank you, Tim.
 
Tim McCreight: Thanks folks. My name is Tim McCreight. I'm the CEO and founder of TaleCraft Security. We're a boutique security firm that focuses on developing security programs using a risk-based approach. And after 44 years of doing this, it's nice to finally get a chance to see some of the changes that we wanna make within the industry, and particularly with we're talking about today, these verifiable credentials.
It's been something we've been dealing with, trying to make sure it's Tim doing what Tim's supposed to be doing, nothing more and nothing less, and trying to get to a space where we're seeing that come through. It's great to talk about this today. It's a great opportunity to explore and identify what a verifiable credentials can do for organizations, but how it helps people like me in the security industry truly understand that we can start reducing risk by using this approach.
[00:01:56] David Coriale: And you are also a host of a podcast? 
[00:01:59] Tim McCreight: [00:02:00] Yes sir. I am. I have my own podcast. I co-host with Doug Lease, and it's called Caffeinated Risk. It's two self creamed grumpy security professionals talking about security and risk. And we thought throwing in coffee security and risk, how can you go wrong? So this is year five now with caffeinated risk.
[00:02:17] David Coriale: And I've just gotta mention, 'cause you said this earlier, that the icon for it is the caffeine molecule. Yes sir. Yeah, it's just really fun. It looks good on the mugs and the T-shirts, so it looks really good. Yeah, that's what's important. So thanks for joining. I always like to start at these conversations, kinda the start at the top.
And what are we talking about? So you've talked about verified credentials, risk in cybersecurity, in your backgrounds, and what you are trying to accomplish. I think we're all familiar with cybersecurity. Right. There's plenty of news coming at us with what's happening in cybersecurity breaches and so on.
How is this different, like when you talk about cybersecurity and verified credentials, explain the link between the two and what you mean by verified credentials. 
[00:02:58] Tim McCreight: That's a good one. I'll start [00:03:00] first and then I'll pass it on to Elena. From my perspective, one of the things that we've struggled with for years is making sure that as I access a resource, as I log onto a system, or as I gain access to different data or information across an organization, I need to make sure that Tim is actually Tim, and I need a way to validate that, and I need a way to prove that I'm given or been granted access to these different data stores data resources.
The difficulty with that is over the years we've been really restricted of what we could provide. Everyone listening knows, we first started with IDs and passwords, bringing in different factors for authentication, but there were still avenues that were open to fraudsters, to impersonate somebody. So I could log on saying that I'm Tim.
I'm not really Tim, but I have his credentials. I've got his password, so now I can gain access to the information that Tim has access to. So that became problematic and it still is. What we're finding now is there's a desire to gain greater understanding of who Tim is, [00:04:00] where I really can go, can you prove his background?
Can you show me the resources he should have access to? And now can you provide me that level of access and make it so that it's difficult or damn near impossible to steal those credentials or to copy those credentials by using different forms of encryption. That to me is when we're starting to talk about some real changes to how we gain access to sensitive information or to data that I need to see to do my job every day in an organization.
[00:04:26] Elena Dumitrascu: There's also the need for Tim to have portability. If this is his data, let him carry it with him. Obviously, if it's an email address from Tim's employer, if Tim no longer works there, that email address is no longer in his possession. But if it's a different type of identifier about Tim, like his. Digital identity, his driver's license or his university degree, or his certificate from an association, his professional designation as a security expert.
Those are all bits of [00:05:00] information that belong to Tim. I. He should be able to take from organization to organization and prove those statements about him as he gets onboarded, as he logs on every day to various systems that he should be allowed to log onto because he has those credentials. So it's more than just the username and a password.
It's all of these details about Tim that now finally can be given to Tim. In a secure, encrypted and portable way we can take from engagement to engagement. 
[00:05:33] David Coriale: So I feel like this is more important, if you will, than username and password credentials. Right? Because that's what most of us think of when you, what are your credentials, username and password?
Because we're talking about verifying somebody's credentials from a professional. You mentioned just now maybe their association certification. Right. Which could impact. Their credibility. So some of this is privacy, some of this is credibility, and then some of this could be also things like the ability [00:06:00] to prescribe drugs, right?
Controlled substances as a, the, what is it? The DEA, the drug enforcement administrative number that a doctor has. If I have that number, I can impersonate someone and prescribe drugs. I'm understanding you clearly that we're talking about more than just the privacy aspect. We're talking about impersonation for nefarious or illegal activities potentially as well.
[00:06:23] Tim McCreight: Yep. A really good example, and this is one that Ellen talking about before and it really resonates, is this idea if I have specific training in, let's say one environment, and I go back to my time I spent with oil and gas or critical infrastructure. If I'm gonna be working in a facility where I have to take two trainings, so I'm required to have safety training before I enter the facility, or before I can actually go do work with a plant, and I want to be able to move from one employer to another, but my credentials for safety stay the same.
This is an amazing opportunity to take what I have learned, what I've maintained in the background that I have, the training that I have, that I can verify that I have the training [00:07:00] and that I actually am qualified to work now in an environment where I have to have H two s training for safety. This is a terrific approach to do that because now that's transferable with me because I own that credential or I own that training, and that's part of my profile.
Now when I create that verifiable credential for Tim. 
[00:07:16] Elena Dumitrascu: Let's think about the cybersecurity team in that company. Tim is a new employee. They have to provision him with access to all sorts of things. You bet they get that information today from HR through something like ServiceNow Ticket that says onboard Tim.
But does that cybersecurity professional know that the right due diligence was done on Tim? They take it at face value. What if something changes from the moment when HR or someone else checked Tim's credentials? One of them expired or got revoked, right? That cyber team in today's world before verifiable credentials in the paper world or the unverifiable digital PDF world, we'll take it at face value and we'll go [00:08:00] ahead and provision Tim with the respective access and only through some kind of audit that companies typically have every six months or every year, those things get caught and by then it could be too late, right?
So yes, there's the fraudster, bad actor story. There's also the, nobody intends to be a bad actor, but it just happens 'cause all this data is connected and we're pushing paper between departments and you never know who should or shouldn't be able to access a system or a secure room. 
[00:08:31] David Coriale: So is that how associations are currently using verifiable credentials to protect themselves? I'm just trying to tie it to either member services or consumer services. I'm a consumer and I'm looking for a verified speech pathologist. How are associations using this now to reduce their cybersecurity risk or their brand risk? 
[00:08:52] Elena Dumitrascu: They're using it both at the onboarding phase to make sure that Tim is Tim.
There's so many people that have the same name that may have [00:09:00] gone to the same school and gotten that doctor's degree, and if that association is in the medical field and they require a degree as proof before giving them a, an extra license for a specialty, they need to know that the degree that's being presented belongs to this to him, not another one.
That this is the right constituent. All of that is verified at source in real time on an ongoing fashion, and then on the tail end of that process that the product that the association or certifying body issues for Tim. Leverages the same level of security and tampers and portability as the artifacts that Tim showed up with.
So whether it's a, a license that allows you to operate specific equipment, or in the case of Tim, particularly because he is a security professional, his security designation, right? That association can now give him that not as a badge, but as a verifiable credential [00:10:00] that. Belongs to him and no one else can borrow it and present it.
[00:10:06] Tim McCreight: And this is what I really appreciate from a security perspective because it takes away that potential mismatch from when someone's first being brought on board to when they're being granted access to systems. And it's an opportunity for us to continually assess the credentials that you're presenting and make sure that they're still verified.
And Elena's. Throughout my career I've seen where as we hire somebody and go through the hiring process, it appears as if it's a one-time review. This offers that opportunity to continually assess that individual's credentials, verify them in near real time or real time, and give us the opportunity to ensure that, yep, Tim still has this valid credential.
It's still active and up to date, he can still gain access to these confidential resources because we are relying upon this approach that's been taking for the credential. So to me, it's such a great opportunity to explore more of this within the security realm. It gives us a chance to look at different avenues for us to validate.
Where Tim can go. [00:11:00] I can also validate based on the credentials and the history that Tim has provided in those credentials, the additional opportunities we can give him or different pieces of work that he can work on based on his past experience, his past credentials, and that we can continue to verify it throughout.
So I see some amazing opportunities to leverage this in the future. I'm even thinking myself for things like national security clearances. As you progress through your career or as you start getting access to greater levels of security or secured resources and access to these documents, I can validate it still, Tim, I can validate Tim's historical context and I can take a look at his credentials to continually grant and validate his access to that information.
[00:11:40] David Coriale: So I'm listening and I'm trying to parse the difference between offering this, 'cause you were using the onboarding, the staff person example, and you're also using examples for professions and members so that their credentials can travel with them. And you're talking about it being persistent, meaning the credential is verified until it's not.
So it's portable and it's [00:12:00] up to date. It's you're using examples. Hey, it drives me nuts when somebody gets on the phone, like I'm calling someone and they say, I'm calling, I'm calling for when my dad passed away. I'm calling to try to do something. And they're like, and I say, I'm Dave Al. And they're like, we can only talked to Anthony.
How would you have known? It's insane. I can call right back and talk to somebody else. Difference. So clearly our level of verification going on right now is super minimal. You're bringing a whole new level to it. So lemme get back to where I was second with the staff versus members or both. And I've had a podcast with Juan and Hannah from IntES where they talked about with their real life example.
That's on Reboot IT. You can go listen to that one. What other examples are out there? So there's two parts. Part one, staff versus members or both. And then let's talk about some examples. It's both. Okay. 
[00:12:50] Elena Dumitrascu: It's both. Why wouldn't you want this level of awareness for both staff? Could mean staff in an association or staff could mean employees in [00:13:00] a, in an organization that have credentials from an association.
In our case, as an organization, you definitely want your staff to be who they say they are. We've seen so much remote workforce lately. We haven't even touched on that yet, but it's so hard if you'll never meet that person in real life. To know, are they the ones actually doing the job? They could be, who knows.
So again, going back to the cyber thing, it's important that every staff member has been vetted and continues to be vetted and has access to these verifiable credentials about their profession and ability to do the job. And then part two, absolutely. As an association, there is now a movement towards issuing.
The licenses and the memberships as verifiable credentials to protect the brand, to make sure that the professionals, if you think about it, the industry, trust, the association to certify these people. Then yeah, it's your duty to make sure that you certify the right person and that certificate cannot be [00:14:00] forged.
So it's both. 
[00:14:01] David Coriale: What about the example piece 
[00:14:03] Elena Dumitrascu: In the U.S., we can definitely talk about LIOs that you mentioned. They use verifiable credentials for all of their constituents. These individuals work in the healthcare space and they are medical practitioners and doctors which operate ultrasound type equipment in hospitals.
You can imagine how important that is, that someone with that type of job is who they say they're and holds that designation. With an active status on it, A verified status on it. Sure. But that's one example. We also have safety associations that have deployed this for, again, safety professionals. If you're a safety manager, you have a specific designation you must hold.
Those are now have rolled out. We have an association in Canada called B-C-R-S-P. It's the Board of Canadian Registered Safety Professionals. They use verifiable credentials. Another example I'll give you back to the healthcare space in Canada, uh, an [00:15:00] organization called COPSW. It's the Canadian Organization for Personal Support Workers.
I personally love this use case because if you think about it, personal support workers are always dealing with the most vulnerable people, right? Our grandparents that need help in the home sometimes, right? Not even in a hospital where there can be other professionals. So having personal support workers that go through a background check and a an insurance check and then hold a verifiable credential stating that they are who they say they are and they're allowed to do that job.
Super important. So those are some examples. On the employer side, countless examples from energy to now healthcare. So think of a hospital that now onboards this way. Every professional comes with their designations that would goes to the cyber team to onboard them. So yeah, those would be some examples of employers.
[00:15:57] David Coriale: You made me think about this, that [00:16:00] could you mention. Hiring process. And recently we've seen articles about the number of North Koreans who have been hired by companies not knowing, right? Not verifying, not knowing where they actually lived. Take that a step further with, I just watched a reel on Insta the other day where everything was ai.
Not a single person talking to me was real because they'd say it at the end. They're like, Hey, here's what I did today, blah, blah, blah. And by the way, I'm AI. Is this a safeguard against accidentally hiring an AI agent that can go through an entire interview process and not have even been real or a bad actor from another location?
Is this at that level? 
[00:16:42] Tim McCreight: I hope so. That's what we're hoping for. You're right. There's just some frightening aspects of how intelligent AI has become and how believable it's. What this process forces people to do is to demonstrate and have those credentials validated by [00:17:00] other parties than themselves simply submitting a letter going, Hey, hi, I'm Tim and I do this.
So it provides a bit of safeguard for that. This is where that whole idea of impersonating someone to get their credentials and then call a help desk as an example, to get a password reset so you can go ahead and move forward with that. Or I need access to a system and I'm gonna go for the prompts and I'm gonna wait for the call back.
I'll try to provide my password. If I have problems, can you help me get through it? This eliminates that type of risk, and that has been historically, one of the biggest things we faced in security was. We can't lock everything down. We just, we can't. If we could, like I have no appetite for risk. So at best days you're gonna get a notebook with a crayon and I want it back at the end of the day.
Because I really don't trust people and you're never gonna get access to the internet. But I don't run a company, I run my own company. I just don't run anybody else's. So we have to find ways as security professionals to provide the access you need every day to be successful. This offers that opportunity to do that by relying on the credential and the validation process, and then it's verified every [00:18:00] time it's being accessed or every time we need to verify it.
That credential then is accessed. Make sure it hasn't been tampered with. It hasn't been altered, it's still valid. Now I can grant you access to the systems that you're looking for. So yeah, this should help remove some of the risks that you talked about. Fingers crossed, right? All of this will be resolved with these types of technologies because it relies on the cryptographic skills for the.
Program that's in place, and it relies on the validation of the information I provide by the user to the credential store and then to the validation process to make sure that I'm still Tim and here's how I prove it. 
[00:18:35] Elena Dumitrascu: And Dave at ASAE Annual, we're hosting a session exactly on this topic. Great content, authenticity and verifiable credentials.
It's taking place on August 11th. If anyone listening will be at annual, they can come see us. Speak more about that. We've also released the white paper through a SE on this exact topic, and please. Look for those assets. It gets into a lot more detail and [00:19:00] Tim is right. This is what we consider the current fighting chance against bad AI.
Because there's great AI out there, but there's also bad generated AI. That is impersonating people, and that is also making fake certificates and diplomas that are indistinguishable to the human eye. So what verifiable credentials do is basically putting a padlock on this data, similarly to how you see a padlock on a website and you know you can trust it 'cause it's secure.
It's that same idea, but at the ID level, whether it's a degree. A license. Your actual Id like your driver's license and so on. 
[00:19:41] Tim McCreight: Yep. I may get my doctor's eventually, is what you're saying. I could probably do that now. Is that the, yeah, I'm kidding. I'm kidding folks. I'm kidding. 
[00:19:48] Ad Read: Let's take a quick break from the conversation to hear a word from our episode sponsor, Credivera.
Verifiable credentials are an emerging web standard, helping to establish authenticity and [00:20:00] online interactions, something increasingly important in today's digital world, Credivera works with professional associations to support this shift. Through Credivera,  ASAE members have the ability to issue globally acceptable verifiable credentials, such as certifications to operate an ultrasound machine that members can use to verify employment qualifications, confirm ownership of a professional license or membership, and interact more securely and authentically with their association, employers and others in their industry.
As digital verification becomes more essential, tools like these are playing a growing role in professional ecosystems in today's digital landscape. Ensuring trust and authenticity and professional interactions is more important than ever.  
[00:20:49] David Coriale: So you just laid out a huge value proposition of this, which is if it's our best bet against that type of impersonation and credential theft. That's [00:21:00] a big value because people I'm sure are wondering at this point, what's the cost of implementing something like this for an organization? 
[00:21:07] Elena Dumitrascu: It'ss actually not an issue. And I know sometimes with new technology, that is a big risky thing, but what the internet gods have done, specifically the worldwide web consortium, this is the governing body that governs a lot of things about the internet.
They're the ones that brought. Another standard about a couple of decades ago called CSS that allows every webpage to look the same regardless of browser, right? The next standard that they've rolled out was one for verifiable credentials. So what that means is they can be embedded in existing technologies, or they can be products like the ones creative has called Creative Exchange can be hooked into existing a MS solutions or LMS solutions without.
A huge cost, and for us, knowing who our customers are, cost was always top [00:22:00] of mind and wanted to make sure that we bring forward the solution that. Will not cost, will not be basically the item to prevent it from happening. Yeah. So it's scalable, it's supported by the internet. I think that's important to know.
As more adoption grows, your organizations, the leverage verifiable credentials will not be locked in a format that's not interoperable. Those are really important things to know that even if you're making a decision now, that decision will be good for you even five, 10 years down the road. 
[00:22:33] David Coriale: Understood.
And cost in affordable are relative in, in terms of have the risk. On the other hand, which is something you, you're obviously dealing with caffeinated risk. Tim, that's kind of in your wheelhouses at risk is so great that not looking at these technologies seems to be. Foolish, at least to know what type of investment it is and what type of change management you have to put in place and so on.
What [00:23:00] is the barrier for organizations to adopt this then? If it's not cost or, and maybe there is no barrier. I don't mean to make that assumption, but Yeah. Generally speaking, our community isn't first on the bus with new technologies. So as 501Cs we are a little more cautious and there are reasons for that.
But what have some of the objections been besides cost then? Or how do you get it? Let's look at the positive way. How do you get this approved in your organization? 
[00:23:23] Tim McCreight: I think how I would look at this is from, I would look at it from the risk lens first, and the reduction of risk facing, let's say an association that's granting, designations or certifications to its members, but wants to make sure that not only am I granting it to the individual who's demonstrated their skills, taken their examinations or work through the process, but that you can actually validate that credential to potential employers or your current employer, and the risk of reducing that validation process by what.
As an example, what Credivera offers for verified credentials. What if I can, as an association, provide you an avenue to demonstrate to your current or [00:24:00] potential employers that the credential that you've received it isn't gonna be altered? It's valid. It demonstrates my skills in this one particular area.
And at any time, you can come back as an employer and validate that my credential still exists, that I still have the capability to work within this. One area. I still have the skill sets to work on this technology. I've got the health and safety requirements to work on this job site. I can manage this piece of medical equipment.
Or as you move further up, I am still a lawyer in good standing, and here's the states that I can operate within. I am a doctor in good standing across Canada, and here's my credentials from the Canadian Medical Association. That to me, would be fantastic because now what I can provide is a level of assurance through my association.
That's a really big deal because now as someone presents their credentials, it can be validated and I can demonstrate that I am Tim. I have this credential. I can work in this environment. I have the skillset, or I have the ability to access this information. I. That's a huge benefit to any association, I would think if that's something that they're considering [00:25:00] and it's an opportunity to provide that as part of the membership benefit.
If I'm gaining that credential or that membership on that association, wouldn't it be great to have that ability to come back and say, anytime you wish to validate my credential, this is how we do it. 
[00:25:14] Tim McCreight: I feel like what's being pointed  out is how much we just rely on blind trust and a paper document and let me PDF my designation and send it to you.
And we've seen it all. And unfortunately, like honest people being honest most of the time. But we've seen this, right? Like I remember not that long ago where we were doing background investigations for an organization I was chief security officer at, and we actually had a member of the board lie about their credentials.
They sent in a like a bogus. Doctorate degree, and we're like, you didn't think we were actually going to go check? Wow. But can you imagine? All of a sudden I take away that kind of noise, right? If I say that I'm qualified to work a piece of equipment and I can demonstrate it and I have it and it's still valid, and I can go back and verify that Tim can actually operate this heavy equipment, because this is the credential that says you can.
Terrific. That [00:26:00] takes so much time and takes a lot of risk out of the employment process and onboarding, et cetera. But now we can continually evaluate to make sure that Tim can still operate this piece of equipment, is still an engineer in good standing, still has the capability to do this type of work.
It's because this process exists to validate that and to verify it. 
[00:26:17] Elena Dumitrascu: And people are proud to have these designations. When I association, we also talk about member retention. How important that is, and any professional that holds designations is incredibly proud of those, and why not give those members something that proves beyond shadow of a doubt that I.
They have actually done the hard work and the exams and hold that designation. Members love this and it's in their possession. I guess we haven't talked about some of the details around portability, but it's in their possession and they can choose to decide who sees it. When it gets presented, they as the individual can [00:27:00] revoke access from a third party.
So let's say you're going to apply for a job and you just shared your license. But you don't get that job. You can now revoke access versus in today's world. You've given your stuff. You don't know what that recruiter or potential employer has done with that data afterwards. With this, you are in full control of this data.
It's in your possession at all times, and as an association, you're really giving an incredible gift to your constituent by offering them this. And that's been the feedback that we've seen and the excitement from members that we've seen where it basically just spreads through the mouth like wildfire within a community.
[00:27:41] Tim McCreight: Like I have three security credentials. I'm proud of all of them because honest to God, it took a lot of work and effort to get them. So I'm quite proud to have them. But to be able to demonstrate that I'm still a valid hold of their credential, I've demonstrated my subject matter expertise. I've continued to gather my continuing professional education credits.
I can demonstrate that I'm still a member in good standing of all [00:28:00] three. That's important, right? For security professionals, at least in my world. And when I'm looking and. Have hired in the past. I look for those credentials as well, and I ask them to demonstrate it, that it's still valid. They've been accredited, they still have their designation, they're in good standing.
This gives the member an opportunity to provide that. And to Elena's point, if I don't get the job or I'm no longer working for that employer, I can revoke that access to that credential so that I maintain. The confidentiality I maintain who gets access to my credential store. That's important, right?
Especially when I look at it from a security perspective, is I'm giving the user now an opportunity to manage their own journey with their credentials. 
[00:28:37] David Coriale: But you can see right after my name, right, I have my CAE and when that wasn't showing up on Zoom or wasn't showing up on teams, I sent in a ticket. Hey. To your point, I'm proud of that.
Right, and I'm gonna keep it attached to my name and it's on all my badges. I wanna step away for one second from the association community, so to speak, because one of the things that we have issues with [00:29:00] period is identity theft. Applying for credit cards, opening up bank accounts. I saw an ad the other day for applying for a job from 1984 or something like that.
I was going through something and it said, send your cover letter with your driver's license number, your social security number. The only thing missing was your mother's maiden name from this application for a job. To your point, you made me think of it because once you've sent that in, it's outta your hands.
Just like now you go to the doctor's office, they ask for your social security number, so I don't know what you're doing with it when I'm done, because this gonna extrapolate into. Identity theft protection. 
[00:29:35] Elena Dumitrascu: A hundred percent. There is an entire industry around digital identity built to support identity theft protection.
But I'm gonna put a pin in it because I'm sure Tim has a lot to say about that. 
[00:29:47] Tim McCreight: Yeah. Wouldn't it be amazing if I could actually reduce this type of fraud and if I was able to do it with the type of structure that's in place and what Ellen has been talking about as well, that's to us is what we're all looking for as strictly professionals.
As you're right, David. It is [00:30:00] so easy now to impersonate somebody and you brought up. In context, one of the greatest examples that literally scares the hell out of us AI's taking over and is now interviewing for jobs. So now how do we do this? And by asking for your verified credentials and us validating who you are based on the credential story and being validated through the process that's in place, what Elena and her team have done as an example, that to me brings me solace.
I actually can trust this now. So that video was that amazing. And yet when we asked them, can you, can we provide now your credentials so we can validate it? And the screen gets blank, I think we've done our job then. Yeah, that's what we're looking for, is to now all of a sudden, oh, can I get back to you?
Oh, you know what, I'll, lemme just get back to you tomorrow and I'll be right. You'll hear whatever stall technique or tactic that they have. That to me is important because now we're putting in a control in place that you can't alter. So when you show me the cred, then I go and validate it. I know it's Tim and this is the work he's done.
Here's his credentials, here's his certifications, here's his associations. More importantly, this is what he has to demonstrate [00:31:00] who he is. Terrific. As opposed to the screen getting blank now on a video or zoom interview, and they're not calling you back. This is gonna help because we have faced this for a decade or more.
It's gotten worse these last few years. This is a great opportunity to start stemming some of that identity theft, identity fraud by putting these types of controls in place. Awesome. 
[00:31:19] Elena Dumitrascu: And add on to that. When Tim is in a country across the globe, how are you gonna get his certificate to him? How are you gonna vet all of this?
You may not even know all the laws in that country. So this technology also eliminates that problem. It provides that global mobility the minute that it's live, right? Where. You can issue in the same city or in a country across the globe with the same ease. And knowing that you're meeting the privacy, the security, the compliance rules of anywhere on the globe, because again, this is a global web standard, so how it gets implemented is meant [00:32:00] to align with all of those roles.
And David. Speaking of your three letters, how great it would be if next to CAE was a little trust mark. 
[00:32:10] David Coriale: Yeah, there will be. I'm confident there will be someday. Yeah. 
[00:32:12] Elena Dumitrascu: Yeah. In Canada, all CAEs do have that trust Mark already. Speaking of implementations, it's been, I think live for them for the last three years, so if you do ever speak with a CAE that's been certified in Canada, they will have that trust mark.
[00:32:28] I feel like what's being pointed  That's awesome. Yeah. We could talk about this for hours and we could come up with both the value side and the fear side of what we're dealing with. But what I want to close with is I'm an association. I'm not Put yourself in the position of an association exec who's running an organization, whether it be 300 or 30 staff, 5 million or $280 million budget.
You are the chief staff officer. Who and what should you be asking in order to learn the applicability of this to your [00:33:00] organization? Internally, externally, profession, et cetera? Like what's your starting point? 
[00:33:03] Elena Dumitrascu: From what I've seen, you have an internal sponsor. So taking Teos, their CIO was the initial internal sponsor.
They built the case for why. Verifiable credentials make sense? Obviously they're an organization that supports the healthcare industry. Those credentials carry a lot of weight in that industry. So that's where it starts. You need that internal sponsor. Often it is a CIO or a chief credentialing officer.
They build the story as to why it would make sense. And by the way, speaking of that story, when we talk about costs. We've done some analysis. It typically costs the entire verification and issuance around $3,000 per individual. With this, you're literally talking a micro fraction of that cost and you'd set it and forget it.
That's another thing that we hear from our association customers. We just put it in place and then it just works. 
[00:33:59] David Coriale: And just to be clear, you're talking [00:34:00] about like current state people verifying, putting papers around, copying, PDFing is like $3,000 per person. Yeah. Yeah. Versus, yeah. 
[00:34:08] Elena Dumitrascu: Both the on of that number as well as the issuance, putting something in the mail to send to them, the phone calls they get, the online directories.
They must maintain that. You have to make sure that a web scraper cannot hack your online directory. There's all sorts of things that cost money into today's process. On average comes to around 3000 per constituent. So yeah, so you build that business case and because associations are typically bored.
Driven around these decisions. Board approval is important. Once board approval is accomplished, then it would be to engage with a vendor like Vera. We actually have a buyer's guide that I can make available to post with this podcast if folks are interested in that. Buyer's guide are all the things that you should be asking.
It is new technology, and there [00:35:00] you should be asking some specific things and then implementation. If it's a standalone implementation, it can happen within a week if it's a complex implementation with multiple systems coming into the verifiable credential exchange. That could maybe go up to 60 days, but it's not a multi-year, super complex, super involved type rollout.
[00:35:24] David Coriale: So that's one side. You've got a sponsor like Juan or whoever coming at you, the CIOs chief credentialing officer, et cetera. If you don't have that, Tim as the CEO or executive director, whatever, as the chief staff officer and you realize this could be applicable, who do you go to? 
[00:35:39] Tim McCreight: So a couple things I was thinking of as Elena was walking through the process.
So I had the honor of being the global president for a SS International in 2023. So I had a chance to work very closely with our administrative team, all who are members of ASAE and who many hold the CAE designation. And as we were working at how do we establish and continue to grow the brand of ASAS [00:36:00] International across the globe and build out the credentials that we had.
A couple of things came to mind, particularly with some of the use cases that may be applicable here. I sat on the board and was the chair of the board as the president. So what I would look for at a board level is can you demonstrate the value proposition to the members? And I think you can.
Particularly in some of the security associations, the three that I belong to, it's an opportunity to demonstrate the credential that it can be verified, that it can be managed by the credential holder, it can be revoked from particular areas you manage the direction of where you wanna provide your credential.
What that does as well is it provides clarity on what that designation truly is. The work that I can do, the, the skill sets that I've acquired, et cetera. That becomes part of the value proposition for the members. And then finally, the member messaging is something you could use that includes, it's a verified credential.
It is what's under a very strong security regime to ensure that it isn't altered. You can demonstrate it to employers to present your [00:37:00] credential, as opposed to, Hey, can you send me a photocopy of your CPP or your CISA, or et cetera? No. This way I can provide it to you as an employer. You can demonstrate that you've gone through the process of vetting me.
I have my credentials. It applies in the onboarding for new employees. It applies for the hiring process, but also for the maintenance of an individual's career inside an organization. It can demonstrate how as a member, as I attain my credential in the company I work within, does that help me in my career path and to move into different positions?
Absolutely. So there are benefits from a member's perspective. If I have a credential that's offered by an association, I can use this now as an opportunity to demonstrate my skills. My credential, it's verified. You can look at it here and now that takes over some of the guesswork. If I'm applying for a new role, a new position, or wanting to advance my career in my current organization, this helps me in that journey as a member of, as an example, ASIS or ISC squared RS.
Awesome. 
[00:37:57] David Coriale: Sometimes we talk about technology, and I don't mean this the way it sounds 'cause I don't [00:38:00] want to, I don't even wanna use the word trivial when I talk about technologies, right? Because everything has value to somebody. And that's what you're ending us here with Tim, is there's a value proposition for the chief staff officer to look at with the leadership team and then find the partner like Creda, who can then walk you through process and cost and value and risk reduction and so on.
But some technologies aren't as impactful as others. Is the way I'm thinking about it and just what you've laid out is so impactful from a societal perspective, not just an individual perspective that I hope people come to the session at annual that look at the white paper, your members, the organization you are in the board with a SIS.
Really get this out there into the conversation. It's not just about credentialing, it's about risk. So this is awesome. Thank you for sharing all of this. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I think you've left us with a lot to think about, but also, [00:39:00] and I'm not afraid, I don't wanna use that word, but I'm concerned.
So let's keep this conversation going, 
[00:39:06] Elena Dumitrascu: David. If we roll back the clock to 20 years ago, nobody ever imagined how much we'd rely on digital interactions. Nobody really understood the value of email before email was in our lives. Nobody understood or thought about the value of exchanging data electronically and APIs before that became a thing and made things so much easier.
But with all of that, we find ourselves in 2025 with. Being unsure if what we're looking at is real or not, because the internet has made us so easy to exchange this data. And also technology has made it so easy for bad actors to mess around with the data that we're looking at. So here we are in 2025. We know we can put the genie back in the bottle.
We know that we've become dependent on this. Like I need instant access to this information. That's a fact. But what we're talking about [00:40:00] here today is. What the next generation of the internet really needs to be, and we're just starting that path, going down that path to just put our minds at ease, that what we are looking at is actually real and verifiable.
Credentials aren't just for associations and information about a person, everything. They're similar projects in every industry, whether it's supply chain or legal industry, to confirm that a business is a business to confirm that when you travel, that a passport is a passport. Like all of these things that we now love so much to do electronically, they're all going down the path of introducing verifiable credentials to make sure that.
With the ease of doing everything. Digital comes the peace of mind that, hey, what I'm looking at is real. I don't have to worry about it. Right. And so that's really the moment in time where we find ourselves in 2025 and we should see a lot more [00:41:00] of this to the point where it will be trivial. We won't talk about it anymore.
It'll be like that. Of course. I can trust it. 
[00:41:05] David Coriale: That would be awesome. And I think we should do two things. One, we should just to end on here, we should. Meet at annual in 3D to make sure we both are real. And Tim, if you're gonna be there, we'll see you too. So the three of us can get a 3D non cardboard cutout picture together.
And then two, I hope we revisit this, either reboot it here or somewhere in 2026 and see what a year has brought us. So thank you again for sharing. We could talk about this probably for two days straight, but we will, we'll meet at annual and again next year and we'll see where we are. Thanks again. Thank you.
[00:41:37] Elena Dumitrascu: Thank you. 
[00:41:37] David Coriale: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Association Now Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals. Discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world.
Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite [00:42:00] podcast. And for more information on this topic, visit associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thank you.

Wellbeing at Work: Building a Culture of Care in Associations

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Aaron Wolowiec, FASAE, CAE, CMP Fellow, founder and president of Event Garde and host of the Voices & Views podcast, chats with Tara Davis, senior director, internal communications and staff wellbeing at the American Psychological Association, about the growing importance of wellness in high-stress industries like associations and hospitality. Tara shares how APA is fostering a culture of care through initiatives like the "Meet with Purpose" campaign, and discusses key strategies for preventing burnout, supporting mental health, and building intentional connections among staff. This insightful conversation explores emerging wellness trends and how prioritizing employee wellbeing can drive both personal and organizational success.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/IvPlhKGgtiw
This episode is sponsored by Visit Orlando.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
Aaron Wolowiec: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to this month's episode of Associations Now Presents. We'd like to extend a special thank you to this episode sponsor. Visit Orlando. I am Erin Wallic, founder and president of Event Card, where we're passionate about transforming to help organizations meet, learn, plan, and grow. I'm also honored to be a newly inducted member of the 2025 Class of A SAE Fellows, an incredible community of change makers and thought leaders in the association space at Event Guard.
We're known for helping associations elevate their meetings and learning experiences, reimagine facilitation practices, and navigate meaningful strategic planning. But today, I'm here not just as a. Facilitator or strategist, but as the founder of Healthy By Association, a wellness focused community, I launched back in 2017 to support those of us working in the often high stress world of associations and hospitality.
That's why this conversation is especially close to my heart. Today's [00:01:00] episode takes a deep dive into what wellness really looks like in association life beyond the buzzwords. We're talking about burnout, prevention, mental health, flexible work, and what it means to build a culture of care that supports both staff and members.
Joining me is someone who lives and breathes this work. Tara Davis, senior Director of Internal Communications and Staff Wellbeing at the American Psychological Association. Tara brings more than 15 years of experience in using psychological science and strategic communication to build healthier, more human centered workplaces.
Her work sits at the intersection of empathy. Evidence and action, and I can't wait for you to hear her insights, whether you're a CEO, trying to prevent staff burnout, an events professional considering wellness lounges and quiet rooms, or just an overwhelmed association pro Wondering if it's okay to take a real lunch break.
This episode is for you. Alright, let's get into it. Welcome again, Tara. We're gonna certainly start the conversation today from a big picture [00:02:00] perspective, and I would love to just define a key term before we get into it. When you think about wellness, I'm curious, what does wellness mean to you within the context of association life today?
Tara Davis: First of all, thank you so much for inviting me to be here. I am so excited about this opportunity and to talk about something I'm very passionate about. So thank you. So I like to focus on the term wellbeing rather than wellness. It seems a little bit of a wordsmithing, but. Wellness to me implies either you're well or you're not.
And it is like one end of the spectrum or the other. And in reality, wellbeing is a spectrum, right? And it's a state of being healthy and happy. And there are lots of different types of wellbeing. There's financial, there's social, there's intellectual, and I think that. It's important to focus on this holistic wellbeing.
It used to be [00:03:00] that people thought about it really as just your physical health, and then I think we evolved a little bit to consider your mental health, but it's so much more. It's this connection of your mind and your body and how you really are doing. When someone asks you. 
Aaron Wolowiec: I love that there are so many different dimensions of wellbeing and they don't always get talked about in all of the places at home or in the workplace, in school, in our church, or volunteer opportunities either.
I'm curious. How you think expectations around workplace wellbeing have changed for association professionals over the last few years? Has it been just as a result of the pandemic or have other factors really been at play? 
Tara Davis: That's such a good question and so perfect. 'cause my dog is barking, so if you hear that, I apologize.
That is a symptom of this work life just coming mixed together and not being suffered anymore. But yeah, I [00:04:00] think that some organizations were thinking about wellbeing in the workplace long before it was trendy, and I feel very lucky to be in an organization like that. APA, the American Psychological Association has had an office.
Dedicated to employee wellbeing since I think 2003 and being a leading mental health organization. That makes sense, right? You can't expect to be talking about mental health in society and with other organizations, and so in my mind, you can't really separate wellbeing from workplace initiatives and from deadlines and priorities.
All of that is intertwined with that. Isn't always the case. And I think one, I don't think you can really say a silver lining of the pandemic. One result of the pandemic that is positive is that more employers have been paying attention to mental health in the workplace because I think there was such a decline in the mental health of our country.
We really facing a mental health. [00:05:00] epidemic as well. The other thing is not only is it about organizations paying attention, but also employees started expecting it. So it's no longer this nice to have, oh, I'm a feel good company 'cause I care about my employees. It's now a business imperative and I think that less people are having to prove the business case to their employers.
And I've also noticed that a lot of these initiatives used to exist solely in HR and it maybe it was a tiny part of an HR employee's job, but now there are positions and teams dedicated to it in my situation, and I think that's a really beautiful thing, showing the priority and the importance that it really is for our organizations and employees' success.
Aaron Wolowiec: And I want people who are listening today to not immediately get turned off by thinking, oh, we're not as large as, we don't have a department dedicated to health and wellbeing like  [00:06:00] APA does. Certainly throughout the episode today, we're gonna be talking about different ways to come at health and wellness, no matter your size, whether really you're a.
Solopreneur working as a consultant within the industry, or maybe a small staff or medium staff, or a large staff organization. So before we get into those tips and tricks, let's start with fundamentally, what are some of the key elements of a workplace culture that truly prioritizes while being no matter the size of the organization?
Tara Davis: I love that question because yes, we do have an office dedicated, and so in terms of resources and budget, but it's really only two of us, two and a half I should say, as I have a member of my team who support some other work in the organization. Don't think that we have 20 folks dedicated to this.
We have about 550 employees and there are two and a half of us who are really focused on creating a healthy workplace. And so in addition to that, I wanna quickly. Note something that is part of what you're already doing, that you can [00:07:00] just think about differently or message differently, or your intention can be a bit different or it's free.
Just wanna quickly say that. So have no fear, don't worry. We don't have a large budget or even a large team. So back to what are these key elements? This is something I've been doing for a while and there are different models that have come around of. What it really looks like to prioritize wellbeing in the workplace.
And what I love is our former surgeon general, Dr. Vik Murthy, came up with a framework for mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. And some psychologists from a PA actually co-created this with the surgeon general's office, so you can look it up if you just Google a surgeon general model for wellbeing, it'll come up and it has these.
Five dimensions of things that the research has shown. These things lead to a healthy workplace. If you focus on these things, you have the outcomes that you're looking for in terms [00:08:00] of your people and your organization. So one is. Connection and community, and we know that loneliness is rampant right now, and we also know that it's really important for our mental health and wellbeing to be connected to others connection and community.
What I love about this model is each of these things are rooted in. Human needs, two, human needs for each dimension. And these needs are consistent across demographics, across type of work, job level, all of these things. And so first is connection and community. So it's rooted in the need for social support and belonging, which is very important right now.
Belonging is very important in the workplace. And the next one is protection from harm. And that's rooted in the need for. Safety and security. So we mean physical safety, of course. We also mean psychological safety. Then there's mattering at work. That's the third dimension, and that is rooted in the need for dignity [00:09:00] and the need for meaning, which obviously purpose goes along with those.
Right now we are spending a lot of time trying to focus on how do you help people find meaning in their work? How do you show their connection to the greater impact of an organization? And then the fourth one is work life harmony. So I joked about my dog. He had this term work life balance before, which was a joke.
Things were never even on the scales. And so now it's like, how can you make these things not be at odds with each other in this gray world of work life? And so those are rooted in the needs for autonomy. I. Flexibility. And so what that means is like someone providing options for how, when and where someone works, when you can, obviously there are parameters, and then giving them the autonomy to say, this is what works best for me.
And then the last one is an opportunity for growth. And that is rooted in the need for accomplishment and the need for learning. And what I love about this [00:10:00] model is they're all surrounding this foundation of employee voices. And so at our organization, the strategy that we use is we listen to psychological science.
So what does the research say? What does it say about people being engaged or happy at work? And then we listen to our employees. So you can't really just take the science and plop it in, right? We listen to our employees about what they need, and that changes day to day, and we evolve. So those are elements that really make up a healthy workplace that is prioritizing the wellbeing of its employees.
Aaron Wolowiec: And we're gonna talk about this a little bit later in the episode today, and thinking about how even those five dimensions might also extend to members, the greater community within your industry, and thinking about how, what does that look like within the context of your organization or your field, I think could be a really helpful activity for your team to think about, consider at a future meeting [00:11:00] or retreat or a strategic planning opportunity to think about.
Given the ideas that we're gonna share today, how might you customize, adapt, or adopt that for your context? Two, all of these five things are so interesting and seem both obvious, but also deep, right? If you could go deep in each one of them, but two things that you said that really stood out to me first is work life harmony.
I love hearing that readdressed or reimagined in a slightly different way because I think we, you're right, we all know that there's no such thing as work life. Balance. Certainly I've not experienced that and I think that when we set that up on a pedestal, something we're supposed to, we're trying to achieve, it probably sets us up for failure in the long run.
The other thing that you mentioned that just really stood out to me was this need for, and probably no surprise that you started with it. Connection and community, right? Yeah. Both in terms of us as. Staff members, but also in terms of our members, our attendees, in terms of [00:12:00] thinking about what associations were created for.
I've been in the event industry for a very long time, and think about all the meetings and events that we plan for our members, for our attendees, for our industries. Really, there are two primary goals that we're doing that for. One is for learning and one is for networking, community building connection.
And we can't ever forget that. It's not always just about the education, but it is about convening people and certainly in this post-pandemic environment. I think that for many organizations and for many events, it's almost like the scale has tipped more toward the side of community. And connection than it has even necessarily towards learning and education because you can find so much of that really good content online these days.
Tara Davis: Absolutely, you're totally speaking my language. One of my favorite studies is the Harvard Longitudinal Study, and they basically followed these men over, I think the CR 75 years, and they wanted to find [00:13:00] out what truly determines how long you live. And they took into account their genetics and their physical health habits and their eating and all the things.
And what they found in this study is that the thing that determines how long and how well you live is if you have. Strong community, and by that they meant it. You don't need 20 friends, you don't need a million Facebook or social media connections. It's really, do you have one person that you can confide in and that you can trust?
That is what determines how long you live. What an incredible thing. I could talk about connection forever because it's so interesting. We know that. And also what's true is in the pandemic we got. Being lonely. We know we need connection. We crave it, but then we all stay comfortable in our homes just doing what we always do.
And so one thing I've learned especially about work, both at our convention, for our association, and also internally. [00:14:00] Is that connection really has to be intentional, and I think that is a big shift that has happened through the pandemic and hybrid work and remote work. It requires a lot more intentionality, but I think that it can still be done beautifully.
Aaron Wolowiec: It's like a huge takeaway I think, for folks today, is that I think that over the years, particularly for folks who have been in this industry of association management for a while, connection community was almost a byproduct. If you convened people. Obviously connection or community happened, right? I think we're beginning to challenge that notion, and I think to your point, recognizing the intention that needs to go behind it in order to create connection and community more intentionally.
Tara Davis: Absolutely. We joke at our organization that folks, we forgot how to interact or talk to each other because of the pandemic. And at our convention, I lead attendee engagement for APAs convention. And years ago, pre pandemic, we would have this space that was like a [00:15:00] newbie lounge and really for new folks.
And then the pandemic hits. We didn't have it for a year or two. And now we're back obviously, and we have decided everyone's new. Because we have lost social skills, we have to be a lot more intentional about community. It doesn't just naturally happen. So we created this lounge area called The Gathering Place, and the whole point is to connect with each other, connect with the convention, and connect with the field of psychology.
And it's a space for everyone to feel welcome to exchange ideas and to learn and to grow. And so I completely agree. I. Kind of was something I think we took for granted and now it, it's so important, but it requires a bit more thought and intention. 
Aaron Wolowiec: And speaking about event attendees and the industry at large, members at large, if you will, what role do you think associations can play in normalizing conversations around mental health within their professional communities?
Tara Davis: Oh, that's such a great question. I think that. [00:16:00] Wherever leaders can model the way that is so impactful. Vulnerability is one of the most important qualities of a leader, especially if they're willing to share their mental health journey. Now, you don't have to obviously talk about a diagnosis or anything too personal, but even sharing that you take part in, in therapy or mental health.
Services. That is huge. Even APA is. A leading mental health organization and there are employees that we have, and I'm sure members as well who maybe even they're a mental health professional and they would be concerned about someone knowing that they are seeking mental health services, which is wild, right?
But. There has been a stigma for so long, and so what I love is when people talk about how therapy isn't just for when something has gone wrong. We had [00:17:00] this NFL player, he spoke at our convention a few years ago and someone asked him, why do you have to go to therapy? What is wrong that makes you seek mental health services?
And he said. What's wrong? Are you kidding me? Therapy is what helps me perform at my best. I don't need to go, I don't have to go. I choose to go. 'cause it gives me an edge on my competition. It helps me learn about myself. And because of that, I'm my best version of myself. And we talk about that at APA.
Some of our psychologists have written things for our internal communications or shared videos where they share, yes, of course, if things are hard and spiraling. Seek it out. But also if things are going well, seek it out. Because then when things go wrong, as they will, you are more equipped. You've cultivated this resource toolkit to really put your wellbeing, your mental health in a good place for when bad things do happen.
So I think just how [00:18:00] we talk about it is a really helpful thing. And then I also just think finding out what barriers might exist to accessing. Mental health services or benefits and remove any that you can. And when we talk about it with our employees, when we talk about our employee assistance program, we actually share, did you know they'll help you find a daycare for your kids?
Did you know they'll help you find a vacation spot? Yes. They're actually there to provide mental health services, but they provide these extra things because it's like an easy step, like an easy gateway into seeking deeper help and guidance. And so I think talking about it and really just normalizing it, that it's part of our lives.
We don't think twice about going to the doctor to get a physical each year. We don't just go to the doctor. If our arm is broken, we go and we do preventative. Things. And so why aren't we thinking about our mental health in the same way? [00:19:00] 
Ad Read: Let's pause there for a moment because I think the assertion you just made is, uh, one that I just wanna remind folks about.
Just making your annual appointments, like having, um, your annual physical going to the dentist two times a year, having your annual. Mammogram. I just turned 45 this year and my doctor said, guess what? At a younger age. Now at 45, they're encouraging folks to get their first colonoscopy. And so I just scheduled that appointment even though I didn't want to.
And so I think pivoting from sort of members in the industry, back to staff, starting foundationally with just some of the basic annual things, annual skin check, for example, just the annual things that you can do to make sure that you're in your best peak self and that you're performing at your best, I think is important.
Let's take a quick break from the conversation for a word from our episode sponsor. Visit Orlando today. We're showcasing why Orlando is an unbelievably real destination for your next meeting. This award-winning [00:20:00] destination offers planners the world-class accommodations. Venues dining and entertainment needed to create memorable and well-attended events of any size.
In Orlando, you will discover sunny weather, a state-of-the-art convention center within a vibrant convention district. Michelin recognized dining and legendary theme parks. Ready to host your groups. You will experience the destination's unmatched commitment to service as you plan your Orlando event with ease.
To start planning your Orlando event, go to Orlando meeting.com. One of the other things I wanted to touch on is burnout. I pulled up to remind myself of a great book if folks haven't read it. Burnout the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. It is a must read for anyone who is dealing with or knows somebody who's dealing with burnout.
'cause I think it does unlock so many secrets and unknowns about what you're navigating and experiencing if you don't fully know and understand. But I wanted to [00:21:00] ask you, as you think about. Practical ways your organization has supported staff mental health, but in particular shining a spotlight on burnout?
Tara Davis: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, I consider burnout has evolved. I've certainly been burnout. I think most of us have varying degrees, and I think that there is this. Okay, get the mental health apps like go to therapy, which is good. I'm not saying it's not, what can the individual do, which is great.
You should have some responsibility and initiative in that. But also, what is our organization doing? To prevent burnout, and so that is where I have been really thinking is I think how we think about burnout and how we think about workplace wellbeing even really has to evolve. It's not just like throwing a bandaid on, like when you asked me what are elements of an organization that [00:22:00] prioritizes wellbeing, I didn't say a weekly yoga class or meditation, or even I didn't say.
Providing mental health benefits, which of course I believe in. It's about the systems and the policies. Are we setting our employees up for success? So broadly, what it looks like. For me is treating our employees as whole humans, complex humans with varying roles and responsibilities that might change day to day.
And understanding that there are all these different pieces to people, right? It's not, okay, I'm producing this one thing, like you can't separate these things out. And the ways that we've tried to shift our culture, we really listen to our employees, which I mentioned before, and so one example. Is when we went remote during the pandemic, most of our organization was not familiar with having remote work.
And all of a sudden we had a million video calls, video meetings, [00:23:00] all day, every day. I think most people in associations can relate to that. Right? And we periodically check in with our employees and ask them, how are you doing? We ask about their stress levels and they said, I'm really stressed out because of our meetings.
And we're like. Oh, okay. Didn't really realize meetings could be that stressful. And then we started digging deeper and digging deeper. And there is a lot of science around healthy meetings and it's a lot more complex than I think we thought it was pre-pandemic. And so we started carving out from the science what behaviors that we would want our employees to engage in order to create a healthier meeting culture.
Based on what the science says based on our culture and context. And so we created this campaign called Meet with Purpose, and we have I think four phases so far. And each phase has a dedicated three behaviors [00:24:00] that we expect our staff to engage in to try out. So the first woman started very basic. We said, okay, the science says that being on calls nonstop all day long isn't good for you.
We were used to transition time. We were used to like being able to walk down the hall and get a glass of water before we went to our next meeting. I. We're gonna say that all of our meetings have to end 10 minutes or five minutes before the end of the hour, and we even encouraged our employees to change their outlook settings to do that so that you have that transition time if you're in back-to-back meetings.
We also said that you should have. An agenda of course, which we knew, but we also encouraged our employees. A, you can't set a meeting unless you have an agenda in the meeting invite. And B, you should try and phrase your agenda as questions. 'cause you can go on and on about a topic, but if you have a question that you're trying to answer that it might be easier to move on to the next agenda item to keep in the parameters [00:25:00] of your timeframe.
So the behavior we focused on that I've loved and meet with purpose is really around video calls and there is a lot of research and it is mixed as a lot of research is, but around. Is it healthy to be on video calls? It's certainly not healthy to be on them all day. We know that is true, but it's complex.
It can be more detrimental to be on video calls for minorities, for women, for new employees. I don't know about y'all, but a lot of the time I'm like looking at myself view and being incredibly critical, and so it's a lot more complex than just, oh, we used to meet in person, so now we have video calls. No, that's actually not the way to do it.
And so this Meet with Purpose campaign really shifted our meeting culture and addressed burnout. Just a couple other things. I know I like talked about that a lot. So just a couple other quick things I wanna mention is that. If we see our employees [00:26:00] as whole people, then we understand that when things happen outside of the workplace, whether it's virtual, hybrid in person, that it affects them.
For instance, when George Floyd was murdered, we had a conversation with our staff and it was open. We had our CEO and deputy CEO on there and our different psychologists as well to just. Talk about what happened and to talk about how we were feeling. We did the same thing after election day and understanding that what is happening out there, it's not separate.
It's all one thing. And helping our employees navigate life really. And then I also will say, and the, I think be more opportunities to talk about this, but our internal communications has evolved drastically to really address our employees as. As whole people and to try and hit the different areas of wellbeing.
Aaron Wolowiec: And you've talked about so many great tactics, tools, approaches that you've taken with the team. I'm curious if there [00:27:00] are ways that you either intentionally or unintentionally or formally or informally measure ROI or how do you know that the two and a half staff that you have dedicated to this role is having a meaningful impact on your team?
Tara Davis: So for us, it's a combination of the research that other organizations are doing, and then our internal data. So we measure the things that are shown to be indicators of organizational success, such as happiness, low stress, job satisfaction, and purpose. And then we see how efforts in those areas impact the things that we care about.
And so we measure. Those things at least once a year, and we compare over years to ourselves, plus to other workplaces, to we compare to similar organizations. We also have an external survey called Work in America Survey, and we can compare our data to other [00:28:00] organizations across the nation. And for us, it's not a.
Annual survey. We do that for sure so that we can compare results, but we also measure after every major initiative we measure after every event. And it's mainly around the things that have been shown in the research to be indicators of organizational success. Along with the employee wellbeing, so happiness, low stress, job satisfaction, and purpose.
And there's actually a really great study recently that looked at these things. It was done by Indeed, and they basically set out to find out is there actual return on investment when it comes to productivity, talent acquisition, and retention, as well as. Like an organization's financial success, and they were able to measure all of those things in terms of productivity.
They asked people how happy they felt, and when you compared the people who had the frowny face with the people who had [00:29:00] the happy face, there was a difference of 12% increase in sales. If you were happy, then you had 12% more in sales than someone who was unhappy. That shows that pouring into employee wellbeing and happiness does lead to greater productivity.
They also found that a higher wellbeing score met you, get more job applicants and particularly the applicants that you want, and then they looked at retention. So companies with higher wellbeing had lower staff turnover, and in terms of numbers, if you have a higher wellbeing, then you're losing one third less of your people each year.
And then of course, they looked at, okay, what about the company itself and its financial gains, or how it's doing in the stock market? And they found that greater employee wellbeing is tied to higher company valuation, higher return on assets and greater profits. For four years. [00:30:00] So they said that the results that you're seeing were predictive of organizational success for up to four years later.
And so, uh, I think it's fascinating that it has evolved from this thing that just felt touchy, feely, soft, if you will, to something that we actually can measure. And there is so much research backing up that it's, yes, it's good for the employees and their wellbeing, but now it is a business imperative that organizations thrive when you do these efforts as well.
Aaron Wolowiec: As we prepare to wind down this conversation today, look, I could talk to you for hours because you are clearly just a wealth of information. But as we prepare to lay on the plane, I'm just curious about a couple of things as we look to the future. One is, what trends do you see on the horizon in an industry like health, wellness, wellbeing that seems to be changing so rapidly?
What should we expect to see in the next maybe one [00:31:00] to two years? 
Tara Davis: Definitely a focus on the whole person, not just what they produce as an employee, so a more holistic wellbeing approach. Also, a focus on cultivating leaders. A lot of CEOs prioritize wellbeing and then it drops off at the mid-manager level.
I saw a striking statistic recently that 85% of managers are. People, leaders on accident, so they actually don't have formal training on leading people. They are good at a skill. Along with that research, there's research showing that managers are as important for an employee's wellbeing as their spouse or partner and as their therapist.
So you have these managers, these people, leaders who are having an impact on their employees, good or bad, but they're not being trained on, you can't just expect them to be a good human. It's a difficult thing to manage these conversations that [00:32:00] you have to have parameters, you have to have boundaries, but you also know that caring about them as a human will lead to greater success.
So I think really cultivating leaders. And finally this shift that I mentioned to not just adding a class here or there, there's a joke that, you know, one of the worst things you can do for stress, someone who's stressed out, is to offer them a three hour stress management class. Like it's not a program or a class.
It's about rethink. Thinking how our businesses and organizations operate. So we need systemic change around wellness, not just bandaids here and there, and Meet With Purpose is an example of that. We could have just had a webinar on how to run a good meeting, but instead we had this initiative that spanned years and focused on how the organization could set employees up for success.
So I think those are some of the things that I'm certainly paying attention to and I hope others [00:33:00] will be as well. 
Aaron Wolowiec: We premised that no matter where folks are joining us today, whether a solopreneur, a small practice, a small organization, or anywhere in between, including medium and large size, that we would give folks an example of a good first step.
For folks who are feeling a little overwhelmed by the conversation today and not quite knowing where to start, where would you point them? 
Tara Davis: So first, please don't be overwhelmed. I clearly love this area so much and you can reach out to me and I would love to have a conversation with you tangibly ask your employees what they need, right?
Like, why are we trying to get, we're not fortune tellers? Ask them if you could, if we could do one thing to improve your workplace experience, small or big, what would it be? That would be so telling. Create an anonymous form and see what they say. And then if that doesn't really get elicit responses, people maybe are afraid.
Have conversations about what is stressing people out at work and think about your culture. Would it be [00:34:00] better for teams to have these conversations than to do a survey, but asking people. What is stressing you out? What makes you dread coming to work? And finally, one of the beautiful things for me that came out of the pandemic is we pilot things all the time.
Just because you start something doesn't mean you have to commit to doing it for two years, five years. You say it's a pilot. We're seeing what happens. We're seeing how your needs evolve. We're seeing how the organization's needs evolve, and you try it out and hopefully you fail at some point because that's like building psychological safety.
And from failure comes innovation. But don't be afraid to try things and they can be very small things. We ask our employees, if we could do one thing to improve your workplace experience, what would it be? And. Some of them were very small things that I could change and make someone's day, and those are some of the things to think about, but I would love to have a conversation with you.
Don't feel overwhelmed. You are [00:35:00] starting with trying to do good and you'll get there. 
Aaron Wolowiec: Awesome. Last question for you today, Tara. Finish this sentence. Associations that prioritize wellness will what? 
Tara Davis: We'll have greater financial success and reputation while also making the world a healthier, happier place when we need it the most.
Aaron Wolowiec: Awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. 
Tara Davis: Thank you. I've loved this conversation with you, 
Aaron Wolowiec: and that's a wrap on today's conversation. Huge thanks to Tara Davis for sharing her wisdom, practical strategies, and heartfelt perspective on what it really means to lead with wellness in mind.
And again, we'd like to thank our episode sponsor Visit Orlando. If this episode reminded you that you matter, that your wellbeing, your boundaries, your energy are worth protecting, then I hope you'll carry that with you because when we create environments where people feel seen, supported, and [00:36:00] safe to bring their whole selves to work, we don't just imp.
Prove morale. We build stronger, more resilient organizations. This isn't just about stress falls and step challenges. It's about embedding care into our culture, our policies, and the way we show up for one another, whether we're leading teams, planning conferences, or supporting members through tough times.
If you are looking for more tools and inspiration, check out Healthy By Association a community. I started to support association and hospitality professionals on their wellness journeys. And as always, you can learn more about our work@eventguard.com. Thank you for listening and for everything you're doing to make your workplace in this profession just a little more human.
Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on wellness in today's association environment, visit associations now online atassociationsnow.com. Until next time, be well and take care of one [00:37:00] another.

Bridging the Gaps: Career Development in Associations

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Christine Shaw of The Association Adviser Podcast sits down with Mike Moss, CAE, president of the Society for College and University Planning, for an insightful conversation on the shifting dynamics of career development in the association space. They explore the growing demand for purpose-driven work, the realities of hybrid and remote models, and how associations can foster meaningful engagement in a digital world. Mike shares strategies for building intentional connections, promoting continuous learning, and creating psychologically safe workplaces. The discussion also touches on transparent hiring, value-based leadership, and how associations can remain agile by rethinking professional development and evolving their strategic plans to meet today’s challenges.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/4DxGN5NMarQ 
This episode is sponsored by Visit Omaha and New Orleans & Company.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
 
Christine Shaw: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode nine of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Christine Shaw, CEO of Naylor Association Solutions. You probably heard me on my podcast, the Association Advisor. However, today I'm honored to host this episode for the ASAE.
Before we begin, I'd like to take a moment to thank our episode sponsor, visit Omaha. For today's episode, we're excited to talk to Mike Moss, president of the Society for College and University, planning about the evolving landscape of career development within the association space, and what professionals can expect in the year ahead.
Welcome to the show, Mike. 
Mike Moss, CAE: Thank you very much for having me and looking forward to our conversation. 
Christine Shaw: Fantastic. Well, let's just dig right in and start with the big picture. How is career development evolving in the association world and what makes this moment particularly pivotal? 
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and it's the right [00:01:00] question to start with because I think from our perspective at SC and also mine as a 34 year practitioner in the space is we're shifting from a linear to a kind of a multi-directional career path.
As I came up through the industry, it was a pretty logical progression for me in operations between being an assistant to a manager, to a director, but pretty much all within the same discipline as I was given opportunities, maybe different associations. I. The directional was pretty linear, and what I really appreciate where we're going as an industry now is that we do have multiple directional paths, meaning I can do a bunch of different things at my association or require a bunch of different skill sets over time, and the association can be committed to me to develop those skills.
I do not have to come on entry with. All the skill sets to be a generalist. I can come in with specific skill sets, develop competencies in certain areas, and then have another opportunity to explore different career paths. And I do think what that's been driven by, and you'll hear me talk about this a lot, probably today, which is I do think our employment base is [00:02:00] beautifully shifting to being purpose driven.
And that's why they're attracted to our sector is they're here to serve and they realize that the service is going to change as tech changes needs change, service requirements change, funding change. I. And I think that this next batch of association employees really get the purpose-driven association.
Christine Shaw: Mike, I agree with you on the purpose driven. That's one of the reasons too. A lot of people, myself included, are drawn to this space. I liked what you said though, that you don't necessarily have to have all the skills 'cause they'll be developed. And I think sometimes people hold themselves back because they think they need to have all the skills.
So that's very encouraging coming from someone like you who's reached to the top position and letting people know that we're here to develop your career along the way. Let's talk about a tricky subject now, right. Nothing's gotten more attention than remote and hybrid work. They've become very common across many industries.
So talk to me about how associations are adapting to this shift and what challenges or opportunities does it present for talent [00:03:00] development? 
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and I, what I'll do here intentionally is avoid the generational trap. I know this is a pod, so people not, may not be able to see me, but after working for 34 years, you can imagine I'm not in my twenties.
I came up in a different type of environment than what we're offering now. The hybrid remote, and my organization is hybrid remote, meaning everybody in the central office location of Ann Arbor is hybrid. We also have employees coast to coast. So we have a beautiful mix and I think some of the challenges that we've experienced that may probably translate to other listeners is that there has to be a real intentional connection process.
You can't just assume people are checking in with one another just to check on the weekend. All that proverbial water cooler talk can be very challenging. And I think we've really experimented with different types of setups. And the one that's worked the best for us is we do have a twice a month purposeful presence meeting.
It's called a P two because every abbreviated, so the Purposeful Presence meetings are. Obviously partly a staff meeting, but they're also mostly a social and it's a chance to [00:04:00] guarantee that at a minimum eight hours a month, 'cause they're both four hour meetings. We're having the chance to connect as humans who happen to work at Skype and making sure that we have that social opportunity.
And that's proven to be real helpful to make people, especially if they're new and remote and not in the hybrid environment that we have. Ann Arbor, it can be a lot longer tail to get. Ingrained into the social movements of the organization. So I appreciate that. And I also think one of the things that's really important, and it goes to what we just talked about where we're heading, is digital fluency is really important.
Obviously you and I are connecting today through Digital Medium and my remote employees, and I see each other three to four times a year in person. Otherwise, it's all digital and being able to manage that digital fluency, not just to open software and use it, but know which software you're using, what tools come with it, what are you endeavoring to do in that meeting?
Does take training, and I think oftentimes we just assume if it's a icon on a desktop. The person will figure it out. And I would encourage all of us as employers to recognize training is one of the biggest outcomes of the hybrid remote work [00:05:00] environment training, the culture training, how the digital fluency will work in your organization, and being real honest about what's not working, and having those channels provided for feedback from everyone, not just your hybrid folks or your remote folks, but from everyone.
Christine Shaw: I like what you said. A couple big takeaways is one, don't put age bias into it one way or the other. I think that helps a lot. I love what you're saying about digital fluency, because I think you're right. Everyone adapts to technology and digital differently, but ensuring that there's alignment on the tools and the training.
It's really key to making this work. And also the fact that you pointed out that some of your intentional in-person meetings are about social, not just work because that's how you get to know people and create those relationships. So well done that. Those are some good takeaways for all leaders to lean into.
And I hadn't really heard the digital as long as we've been doing this, the digital fluency aspect. So that to me is a real key one. And I guess this really goes right into the next [00:06:00] topic, which is culture. We all know. The saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right? So it plays a significant role in career satisfaction, employee retention.
Tell me from your point of view and your experience, what does a healthy growth-oriented workplace culture look like? Especially in today's digital hybrid world and specific in the association space today. 
Mike Moss, CAE: It's a great question. So I'm gonna start by saying it took me 34 years to get this terminology understood.
And it's everywhere. There's amazing organizations that run this discipline and that is being a learning centric organization. In being learning centric, it is really hard, at least it has been for me as a leader. It has been really hard to get this going and I'm still learning every day. And the simplistic side of being learning centric, which would is the cornerstone of our culture, which is you do something, you reflect on it, and then you do it differently.
And while that may imply I work in a silo, it may imply I worked in a team. It all has to imply that you're learning every day to do something in service differently. And to me, that's what's driving the [00:07:00] collaboration at sc. And so we can say all day long that we have a cultural collaboration, but if we haven't enabled that with a systemic approach that is in our job descriptions, it's a systemic approach that is in our daily expectations.
And we talk about it at every P two meeting we have is what did we learn to reflect on? 'cause not everything requires reflection, but what are we gonna do differently so that we can continue to move forward with our members? Who at times are moving a lot faster than we are. And at other times they're looking for us to model how to move forward.
So I think that's the culture piece I would offer is with learning centricity comes psychological safety. It needs to be a place where when I do my reflection, I feel okay in front of all my colleagues that what I'm gonna say is my reflection. It may not be a truth to everyone, but there's where we can collaborate and work together to make refinement.
And so I found that to be really helpful for us and also always reminding that we're mission centered. I know as nonprofits and especially as associations, man, we're all about that. But oftentimes we forget to remind ourselves that we're all about that. There's so many things coming at us [00:08:00] so fast all the time that recentering ourselves to be learning centric around our mission Obligations can be a real strong way to make sure we're aligned appropriately, resourcing appropriately, training talent, all those things.
So I do think for us, and what I would advocate is look into that learning centric organizational design. It's been really. I wouldn't say magical, but pretty close for us. Yes, we've transitioned out of the pandemic. 
Christine Shaw: Yeah. That really resonates for a few reasons. Just this morning we talked about how to think, exercise and go away and reflect.
'cause if you do the same thing over and expect a different result, we all know. So I love that. And attaching that to psychological safety because I think oftentimes people. Operate from a place of fear. What if what I say is not the right thing or I'm gonna be judged, but offering that psychological safety is critical as well.
Mike Moss, CAE: Christine, if I may, I wanna build on that. What you said. There's awesome, and I wish I remembered where I learned this because the person or the organization deserves huge attribution for this. But on our whiteboards, we have the word fun, and what it stands [00:09:00] for is fearless, understood, and not alone. I love that and I wish I knew who said it.
We did not. I don't want to pretend like I came up with that. That's way too good for me to have come up with for sure. But that is to your point on psychological safety, is we are sometimes operating with mindsets of scarcity and fear. We wanna do growth, mindset, abundance and learning, but we have to remind ourselves that it's fun because we have to be fearless at times.
We're not alone. And when we're not alone, we're understood. And I think that's been a real cornerstone of those P two meetings that I referenced. 
Christine Shaw: They say some of the best things are plagiarized, so I think the person would be more flattered. And I know for me this is a great takeaway. I hadn't heard that one before, but for sure I'm gonna reference that.
So thanks. And let's go back to what we talked about both at the beginning and in your last discussion is about purpose and mission. So talk about how you feel associations can better align career development efforts with that sense of purpose and mission to engage your staff and new hires. 
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, I think it starts with value-based [00:10:00] hiring.
And as and assessment and value based onboarding. As much as I just totally went all in on mission in the previous discussion, I think it does come on now, is are we value aligned? And I'm gonna be very deliberate here. It's not about fit. I. It's about value alignment, and I'm not a big advocate of fit because it limits the type of experiences we can bring in potentially.
And not to be completely self-deprecating, but one Mike Moss at this group is enough because of the way I work. That's enough. I would love to be complimented. And so what I wanna be complimented is on my value commitment. And so if we look at the career. Recruitment as well as the onboarding and our career pathing around the value alignment.
It does open up a huge opportunity to have diverse experiences. Lots of different skill sets come in, and as we mentioned earlier, you don't have to have all the skill sets when you show up, but do you have a mindset that you can figure it out, learn it, wanna learn it, do the learning centricity? So I do think.
Alignment with mission is important, doing the value-based hiring and onboarding and then give everyone cross-functional exposure. And [00:11:00] I can do that easily at 18 people. I've worked at groups of 250 people. Obviously things scale differently, but be real intentional about that cross-functional exposure.
'cause that's when someone raises their hand and goes, gosh, can I take a shot at that IT job? And that's where we get that, that real nice retention. But we also get growth and we get new skills, new perspectives. So I think that's how I would align to that answer. 
Christine Shaw: And that really segues nicely into professional development.
I think you in that answer previously, you articulated ways in which you help with professional development. I think both the encouragement of not waiting for every skill, but then this cross-functional. So tell me a little bit more about how you think associations can innovate in this area. Besides what you're already doing in your own association.
Mike Moss, CAE: I think all of us, including scup, do we need to get real good at peer-to-peer knowledge sharing? We all talk about silos. We all have learning that we have that we forgot to say out loud, but we're in peer-to-peer environments to knowledge share, create those opportunities. I think in leadership, it's our obligation to create that.
[00:12:00] And the other thing is you cannot invest enough in training. And I have to be held accountable to this by my peers at times because one of the easiest things often in crisis to cut is we don't need to do training right now. We just need to get through it. That has to be the last thing that you agree to cut.
Of course people and the training that goes with it. Last thing to do everything else you can because in that training investment, you're making a commitment to them for learning and career trajectory. And we all know we're not all gonna be here for 34 years. Some people are here for 18 months and some are for 18 years, and they all require a consistent investment.
And that investment. Projects the trust that we want in our development. We trust that you're going to put this to good use. I know I may not be investing in you forever. I am gonna make you a better X, Y, Z, whatever your path is before you leave here. That is my commitment as an employer. And I think that mantra of commitment to training and peer-to-peer knowledge sharing is something we all need to improve at.
Christine Shaw: I agree, and I think that my mantra is always, if I investigating you for training, even if you don't [00:13:00] stay long-term with me, I'm making you a better contributor in the overall economic world. So that's a win-win for everyone, and I do think employees appreciate that. I think it's great, and I think that everyone holding ourselves accountable, it's just the right thing to do as we think about making a better workplace for everybody.
Ad Read: Let's take a quick break from our conversation for a word from our episode sponsor. Visit Omaha. Omaha is where work and play meet the city is expanding. Its meeting venues and adding attractions. The riverfront, a 72 acre green space downtown features recreational amenities. Scenic views and room to unwind.
Omaha's Convention Center is investing $200 million to create more event opportunities. Joshlyn Arts Museum's, new wing offers after hours inspiration, and a 950 million airport expansion, which will nearly double the terminal size by 2028, adding new gates and streamlined security. [00:14:00] Does pairing productivity with play sound like the right fit for your meeting?
Find out more at visitomaha.com/meetings.
Christine Shaw: Let's talk y'all about somebody who may be just entering the association field. What advice would you give them and what type of meaningful connection should they be leaning into to help with their career development? 
Mike Moss, CAE: Great question. This does not have to do with people's personality gifts, which is extroversion or introverts.
It doesn't matter for an extrovert or introvert, but you've got to build a network. And that's easy to say after you've done it for three and a half decades. It's hard to do when you've been out of college for three and a half months. But as you're considering entering the field, you have colleagues already.
They just may not be aligned to what you believe to be your trajectory. Talk to him anyway. My son has friends in all different industries. He's in agriculture. The place he learns the most about how he can then apply differently to his trajectory in a and agriculture is talking to people who are not.
Farmers. And so working with engineers and his friends [00:15:00] talking differently, but building up into connection of I know a person. And there's that old joke, everybody needs a person. Well, we do. So work on that. Work on finding your people and they don't have to be the logical, again, it's not linear. It's multi-directional now.
So build that ecosystem of yourself and when you're doing that, be sure that your own personal development as you enter any field in our amazing association world is cultivate adaptability. I have preferences. I have preferences for music, I have preferences for office setup, all the things, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.
And I had to cultivate a sense of, and a mindset of adaptability, which is of course very close to what we're looking for in employees, which is agility. I. Having that adaptability like this isn't perfect, but it's great for now. To your point, I may not be here forever, but here's what I can learn now that serves you as someone entering our field as a new person, and you'll find your path, especially if you're with an employer who knows that their investment in you is, as you described, you're gonna help everyone while you're here and we're gonna help you go where you want to go.
I think just putting all that together is the, [00:16:00] the network, the adaptability, and also don't. Get overstressed out with only knowing about association stuff, learn anything and everything. And again, like my son's doing, which I'm very proud of, is learn outside your own field and apply it to your own. And sometimes that's where some really interesting ideas come from.
Christine Shaw: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. The other thing I would add to that too is if you're an introvert by nature. Don't let that hold you back and lean on people to make introductions because I have seen so many positive outcomes by just having. Network. Network and leveraging that network. So I think that's great advice.
A little sidebar, I was in agriculture prior to joining the association world, so that's a great place to be. Good for your son. 
Mike Moss, CAE: Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. 
Christine Shaw: Now you know, whatever industry anyone comes from, sometimes I. It feels like it's a niche or a click of people. Help us understand how associations can broaden their access and reach to people to make it more [00:17:00] inclusive and accessible to people who may not come from the association so we can have a more diverse pool of candidates coming into these space in general.
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, that that's everything, right? And what I would start with is a negative, which is if it looks like it was a job description that could have been posted in 1991, you've got to start over. That is the wrong job description. Don't start there. So start with where we need to be, where we are now, which is be really transparent about everything about your company and be.
Very transparent about the compensation, and while I appreciate that, there's state laws that vary, all the HR compliance things we have to do, the one thing we can all do is not post a range that says zero to 500,000, and just play the compliance game. Be real specific, and in that specific transparency, you are going to attract the hiring prerequisites that you're looking for because a lot of people.
We'll be looking for that transparency. I know what I'm getting into on the first interview. They're maximizing their time and you're maximizing yours. So it's like procedurally, I think those things are important, but then also in the [00:18:00] interview process, don't assume just because someone is a hiring manager with management experience, that equates to interview experience.
It goes back to our earlier conversation training matters. And so I've been fortunate to be a manager, but then as I became a hiring manager, I. At the time, I didn't get any training on the difference between having a conversation with a colleague and a conversation with a candidate. Those are materially different conversations.
So I think you got to make sure you're training so that it's not just about, make sure you say these words, Mike, but it's, it is make sure that you're having a conversation that brings out what they're looking for, what we're looking for. And that is not the same as talking to a colleague. And it also isn't the same as the like typewriter effect.
Interviews that we all grew up with a table of 17 people and you rotate around. I think we all need to be back to that adaptability. We all need to be more adaptable in how we're approaching candidates because a lot of them, as we've experienced in the first question, are remote. Yeah. I may not actually meet, and I have some stories here.
I have not met some of my employees until they're months on the job. In person. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a different experience, so make sure that [00:19:00] we're all ready for that, that digital experience. By training, don't assume, just because I manage people, I can manage an interview. 
Christine Shaw: And to that point though, I do think that the remote hybrid has broken down some barriers about reaching out to a broader geographic area, which helps with diversity.
And going back to your networking, one thing someone taught me in my career is when you are networking. Ensure that you're going out beyond your inner circle, because that's where you're gonna get people who aren't from your little ecosystem, right? Like you're thinking of the example you shared about your son.
You're proud of him with engineering, reaching out, even though he's an ag, you don't know where that connection could lead to, or perhaps there's a really good candidate. Through a friend of a friend. So the more we can do that and not think so linear, I think it helps all of us. So 
Mike Moss, CAE: that's, uh, and no one can see this, but I'm hitting the plus 100 button.
Oh, good. Awesome. That was awesome. Thank you for bringing that forward. 
Christine Shaw: Certainly you have a lot of historical perspective and experience, [00:20:00] especially 34 years in association space. But let's look ahead a little bit. Do you have any trends or changes that you are anticipating will shape or develop associations over the next few years?
I can think of many that are going on right now in terms of advocacy and impact from funding to tax issues. So let me know what's on your mind, Mike. 
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and this is the farthest in the last two years I've made it in any conversation without saying ai. So we will just acknowledge, we know that's part of it, that the AI integration into our businesses, whether we're slow to adopt or fast adopt, there's the future workforce.
So we'll just honor that and leave that there. Yeah, we think we need to really think differently as associations about becoming hubs for continuous professional development. So being lifelong learning ecosystems and not just a place where people work. So this goes into the, I think the bigger collaboration issue for associations, if I applied any level of foresight to this would be we will not be standalone associations in the next five to 10 years.
We will be in ecosystems and the business models will have changed [00:21:00] dramatically. And it's from all the pressures we know are real, it's pressures we haven't figured out yet. But I think we, that's part of being in a lifelong learning ecosystem. So we have to adapt and we have to be calibrating our plans.
So one thing I would say, getting the planning head on for a minute. To this question is that we all write 3, 5, 10 year strategic plans and then try and work 'em. Two rules. Number one, never abandon your plan. And number two, always adjusting, recalibrate your plan. Yep. So if as things change what you wrote two years ago into a plan, or three years into a plan is not gonna be the same outcome, and having that outcome focus will determine then going to this conversation about career development, it will determine what skill sets you need for that next run.
Whether you run six months or six years on whatever you're doing. I think that's the adaptability that is coming. It's not the same siloed industry specific type associations. I do think if I could offer one thing is let's be open to this ecosystem of support that we need to use for the society to come, industry to come.[00:22:00] 
Christine Shaw: It could be and open to the fact that it could look different than it does today, but it could be also more effective. I like also what you said too, is that a lot of times when something isn't working, the immediate instinct is to just whiplash and abandon your plan. But to your point, it might just need adapting.
Not throwing it out. So I think that's important. Mike, I've enjoyed this conversation as the leader and someone in this space there. You gave me a lot of good takeaways and some new things I hadn't even heard, and I'm really confident everyone else is gonna enjoy it as well listening to it. So I really wanna thank you for your time today.
Mike Moss, CAE: Oh, thank you. I, this was a great conversation. It could go on for hours, so I appreciate it. We, we got through it in a timely manner and appreciate also y'all's support of our industry. I don't care what other people do for a living, working in associations is the right way to think it, just to manage your career.
So let's keep people coming. 
Christine Shaw: Great. At this point, I'd like to thank everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the [00:23:00] challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. And again, we wanna thank our episode sponsor, visit Omaha. So be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. For more information on career development and the association space, visit associations now online@associationsnow.com.
Thanks everyone.

Sustainable Events: How Associations and DMOs Are Leading the Charge

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Teri Carden chats with Virginie De Visscher, executive director of business events for Destination Canada, and Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE, vice president of international affairs at ASAE, to explore the role of DMOs in driving sustainability efforts. They discuss the economic and reputational benefits of sustainable event planning, innovative strategies in transportation and local sourcing, and the power of collaboration in designing impactful, eco-friendly gatherings. Tune in to learn how associations and DMOs can work together to make a lasting difference for both the environment and local communities.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/qVljyQJkqsc 
This episode is sponsored by Visit Omaha and New Orleans & Company.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
[00:00:00] Teri Carden: Welcome to episode eight of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Teri Cardin. You may have seen me around the association world as founder of non-A Palooza, AMS Fest and Review My AMS , but these days I'm sidekick it with co-founder of Higher Logic, Andy Steggles with his newest product called Insight Guide.
Some days I feel like a chicken with my head cut off as we manage our 20 plus clients. Yes, I'm throwing ASAE in the mix as one of our newest clients and all the implementations we have going on, but my real. Title is VP of Marketing and Client Success. Folks, I can tell you right now, it's a lot of fun to be me these days helping associations invent and deliver new tools to help their members make smart buying decisions.
How about enough about me? Let's jump into today's conversation about [00:01:00] events and sustainability. First of all, I do want to thank. Our episode sponsors Visit Omaha and New Orleans and Company. Today I am thrilled to welcome Virginie De Visscher, executive Director of Business Events for Destination Canada and Amy Hissrich, Vice President of International Affairs at ASAE. Hello, ladies. So let's jump into today's conversation. I'm absolutely excited to talk about this topic. It's actually a topic that's personal and close to my heart. I'm actually a full-time van Lifer. I collect memories, not things. So I naturally am over conscious about Mother Earth as it's truly an extension of my home.
I feel like it's pretty easy for me to adjust my lifestyle so that I'm thinking about the future of our environment and our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren to come. But when I think of [00:02:00] nationwide organizations like Destination Canada, it seems daunting. Like how in the world I. See what I did there.Do you support more localized DMO with sustainability efforts? It does truly feel like a monumental task for conferences and events when there are literally millions of people involved. So Virginia, let's get started with you. 
[00:02:28] Virginie De Visscher: That's a great question, Teri, because Canada's the second largest landmass in the world, right?
And Destination Canada really plays a unique role as a, I call it a national conveyor or convener, and a and a catalyst. So we're not A DMO ourselves. We work to build capacity, we create alignment, and we try to support our local partners in advancing sustainable business events. Some of the ways that we do that are, for example, training and education.
We've launched a national initiative [00:03:00] where right now actually we have about 50 individuals across the country that are taking the Sustainable Event Professional certification in partnership with the events industry council, and that gives Canadian d os that foundational knowledge to integrate sustainability into their event strategies.
We support Canadian cities in joining the Global Destination Sustainability Index. The GDSI that helps them assess and benchmark themselves and improve their sustainability performance over time. We also see ourselves as bringing collaboration and and tools together, so d os and venues and partners can share best practices and co-create tools around sustainability calculators, storytelling assets.
Finally, I believe in a national alignment. So we make sure that strategies reflect Canada's broader commitments. So Destination Canada has a 2030 tourism strategy so that all those collective efforts can be future facing, that can be consistent and and scalable. [00:04:00] So it's more about continuous improvement and sustainability is embedded in destination marketing in how we do business events across the country.
[00:04:11] Teri Carden: So there's a saying, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And it sounds like you've got lots of single bites going on at one time to make a huge impact. And it makes a lot of sense bringing in those benchmarking and certification, you know, and delivering those or offering those up or providing those resources to those groups.
Excellent. Amy, did you wanna add on to that? 
[00:04:34] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: Can address this more from the association perspective. So some of the first things that associations would want to think through when they're starting down their sustainability journey is really the why. So are they framing the conversations with their boards as to.
Does sustainability align with their mission? Is it part of their mission to embrace sustainable practices? And [00:05:00] the other thing they might wanna think through there is the component of risk and resilience when you're looking at sustainability. So sustainability has three pillars, environmental, social, and economic.But there are real. Potential downstream business risks. So when we look at the World Economic Forum in 2025, they produce a risk report. Two out of the top 10 risks are environmental. So much like Virginia talked about being a convener. Associations are conveners and we. As part of what most associations do, we have conferences, congresses events, an inability to convene because of extreme weather events represents a real and significant business risk for associations.
So in addition to some association having a mission mandate, all associations may be impacted and will want to think through the risk and resilience process for sustainability, and then work towards that.
[00:06:00] Teri Carden: Well, it sounds like there are some big factors that are coming down the pipe for associations to be making sustainability a massive priority, and it sounds like they know it too.
So that's good news. Okay, so onto the next question. What are the biggest challenges, associations and DMO face when implementing sustainability initiatives? Amy, in our early conversations about this, you know, we talked about like millions. You know, are coming and going for education and events and there are monumental challenges that organizations are faced with and you know, how are you coaching around those challenges to the associations and DMOs as they work to implement some of these sustainable strategies and initiatives?
[00:06:48] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: We're going, again, back to fundamentals first, making sure that we have the upfront conversations with our board so that we know strategically where the alignment is. How far the organization is [00:07:00] prepared to go, because then when you have that buy-in, then you can do a holistic plan that executes against that buy-in.
So then you can start to say, we are committed to this work. We're focusing a lot these days on work over words, and so making sure that we then roadmap the actions we want to take. For most associations, their biggest. Impact initiative will be their meeting conference, congress, or event. And so making sure that they are looking at that event as far as the sustainability impact there is likely where they're gonna wanna start.
It's also where they can start building those quick wins. So we see a lot of examples of associations really trying to look at, while sustainability has those three pillars, environmental, social, and economic. They often do look at the environmental impact of that meeting as a place to start. It is quantifiable.
They can measure their progress. So oftentimes associations will [00:08:00] start there. 
[00:08:02] Teri Carden: Great. So it sounds like, it is very similar in any area that association is seeking change, right? You've gotta start small, you've gotta do something. And I loved your framework of a work over words, right? You know, actions do speak louder than words.
And it sounds like, you know, even educating associations that they need to start the conversation and then do something small is a huge gain and a huge win. And then when they see those analytics or those. Stats come back that they're making change it, it, it can only snowball effect. So, Virginia, how about you?Same question or did you wanna add anything to what Amy mentioned? 
[00:08:40] Virginie De Visscher: Absolutely. I mean, I think we're so aligned on this one because, you know, fundamentally I think associations and DMO want to be sustainable, but it's how do you translate those good intentions into actual actions? Because at the end of the day, we all face budget concerns.
We face data gaps that you mentioned, and stakeholder [00:09:00] alignment. Like how do you get all the partners involved in an event to. Move in the same direction. And we recommend same things as you do from early planning, you know, to start ensuring that sustainability goals are embedded into the process, to partnerships.So please, associations partner with your d os in making this happen and, and transparency. Let's be open about what the goals are and, and what progress we want to see. So very much aligned. 
[00:09:26] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: If, I can, Teri, I'd love to just say that's one of the main reasons I love working with Virginia so much, because when we did, as an example, write some of our guidelines as we're trying to be a laboratory and be an example of what associations can do, we wrote.
Exhibitor guidelines for our annual meeting. And I was so grateful that Virginia has such depth of knowledge about sustainability practices that I really felt like I had somebody that I could say, can you help me review this from a substance perspective? So just knowing that somebody has done the upskilling for themselves, she mentioned the [00:10:00] SEPC, but Virginia has a higher level credential for the sustainability profession.
And I always just think that that that is so amazing 'cause it demonstrates. Credentials are part of what associations do, and that's really walking the walk there. 
[00:10:12] Teri Carden: Absolutely. I thought that whenever we started the conversation earlier, I was like, wow, this is so meta. You know? And it is the beauty of association, how collaborative we are and what a sharing community that we are and that you know, that you can lean on somebody who is two steps ahead of you.So what a great testament to working with Canada. So thanks for sharing that, Amy. 
[AD READ]Let's take a quick break from our conversation for a word from visit Omaha.
Omaha is where work and play meet the city is expanding. Its meeting venues and adding attractions. The riverfront, a 72 acre green space downtown features, recreational amenities, scenic views, and room to unwind. Omaha's Convention Center is [00:11:00] investing $200 million to create more event opportunities. Jocelyn Art Museum's New wing offers after hours and inspiration. And a $950 million airport expansion will nearly double the terminal size by 2028.
Adding new gates and streamlined security. Does pairing productivity with play sound like the right fit for your meeting? Find out more at visit omaha.com/meetings. So we talked a lot about the initiatives and the challenges and overcoming those challenges and what are maybe some of the current events that are happening now that affect the impact.
[END AD READ]
Teri Carden: What are, you know, beyond environmental sustainability? How can associations and DS ensure that their meetings leave a lasting positive impact on the local community? 
[00:11:58] Virginie De Visscher: Amy said earlier, you know, [00:12:00] sustainability is a, is a three pillar word, and, and we think the same. It's not just environmental sustainability or emissions.
It's really about people and place and purpose and creating that legacy and long-term value for host communities with really that intention, that intentional design. And some of the ways that we can recommend or suggest to create that positive impact into destinations with events is one is. Working with local suppliers and artisans so that event budgets really support the local economy or partnering with indigenous communities in Canada.
That's the cultural sustainability angle and inviting indigenous leaders to shape programming and, and speak at events and showcase traditional knowledge, not just a checkbox, but really co-create or incorporating volunteering donation initiatives. We have LA Chef in Canada and many others, or focusing on accessibility and inclusions to ensure the event is, is really welcoming and representative of the local population, just a few ideas. [00:13:00] It, the key is to ask, you know, how can this meeting give back more than it takes? 
[00:13:06] Teri Carden: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. It's teamwork too. Sounds like the laundry list of people that would like to be involved. If to if just ask. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. Amy, did you wanna add to that?
[00:13:19] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: No, I think the thing that I would bring in here is we've talked a lot about some quicker wins or in my earlier conversation, but there are also, this could be a big moment for innovation. There are large scale needs that will likely emerge. There's a school of thinking within the sustainability community.
The incremental reduction isn't gonna get us to where we need to be. So I'll give the example, since we're talking specifically about meetings, one of the biggest. Now I'm pivoting back to environmental 'cause Virginia gave an a great example of the people and the social pillar within sustainability.
But back on the environmental one [00:14:00] fuel, getting people to that meeting tends to have the highest impact. But we also know these meetings. Peer-to-peer knowledge exchanges. They create so much value and up-skilling and re-skilling and, and are essential for delivering on the the mission of associations.
So we still know that that's going to happen. We want that to happen. So where's the innovation? And there are even coalitions now forming for developing new fuels so that we can then innovate. Use new technologies to help us solve this problem so that it's not always just a where we're reducing. I'm a huge proponent of, you know, our personal responsibilities, so have my reusable coffee mug, and there are gonna be bigger actions that are gonna require technical innovation.
And I think associations and coalitions of associations are starting to form to explore those possibilities. So there's some green spaces there. No, no pun intended. 
[00:14:58] Teri Carden: Again, I think that's just [00:15:00] emphasis or exclamation mark on the teamwork between organizations and technology companies and you know, vertical industries to help.
You know, all ships rise here because to your point, Amy, we, we don't want to vaporize is people coming together to learn and to grow and to collaborate in meaningful ways for our industries and the professions that are represented. So thank you ladies for that fodder. Lots of ways that we can make impact on our small communities.So I know you have some examples, Amy, that you shared previously and I'm sure you have a giant list of examples, but you know, sustainability is not really a new topic. Right? This is been something that's been on our desk for a long time. I think back to my early association career days, and this was a hot topic, you know, in Florida then, and I know in.
You know, with the events that I've run or I've helped run over the last 18 years, and I think [00:16:00] about the impact of each of those and just the sheer number of people that were involved there. You know, we have evolved and gotten better, but what are some of the emerging trends that are on your desk right now that you've seen in events that associations and DMO should be aware of?
[00:16:17] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: So I wanna take this down to just a really tangible example of behavior change because, well, we talked about innovation before and sort of the, the macro technological solution. A lot of this is still gonna be incentivizing the behaviors that we want to see and making the best. Decisions at an individual level.So I'll use the example, IMEX Frankfurt, I believe they probably do this for their America's conference too. I just haven't been involved in that one. But they, when they give a menu, when you get a menu choice, they actually show the emissions choices, the footprint of that menu. So of course there are lower footprint foods and higher footprint foods, and so they ask you to choose essentially, do you want this [00:17:00] higher footprint. Meal that is likely to contain larger animals. As you're, you're looking down there, do you want the more plant-based alternative? And I will be very honest. It changed my behavior. I really wanted the other meal and just looking at the delta between the two numbers, I was like, I cannot possibly make that decision because it will hurt my soul.And that wasn't just because of the role that I wear here at A SAE, it was because, you know, I wanted the carrot cake, which was in the other menu. But I did make the other choice because the numbers just told a story that I couldn't ignore. So I, I love that example. 
[00:17:37] Teri Carden: It kind of hearkens when they started adding calories to menus as well.Right. You know, it's, I have an eyeopening and, and, and sometimes jarring. When I looked at my bagel calorie count the other day, I was like, Ooh, changing my mind. I better go with the egg bites. Right. How about you, Virginia? Do you have any examples or anything you'd like to share about the trends that are on your desk right now?
[00:18:00] Virginie De Visscher: I do and I love Amy that you shared that IMEX example because it's impacted me personally a lot too. Most recently I attended the site Global conference, so the Society of Incentive Travel Excellence, and you know, we do have an industry that gives a lot of gifts and it can be very wasteful. And what they did is they actually had a marketplace, and I've seen it a few times, but there it was really done tastefully, the event was in Mexico and they had four different local vendors with.
Things like a charcuterie board that was local wood and beautifully painted, and they had some beautiful fabrics with cushions or purses that were made outta straw and all local artisans, and so the attendees could go and get one of the gifts of their choice. So it was a higher end gift. There was no waste.
Everything was taken back, and then the local community really benefited from those purchases. So I thought that was a beautiful, beautiful example. I'd like to add one more and a, a trend that I'm seeing more and more is [00:19:00] regenerative events. So the word sustainability is. In my mind over loved, overused, and sometimes has a antagonist effect where people say, oh, again, sustainability.
Well, we're trying to have the other way around. And so it's, how do we still talk about sustainability while maybe not using that word, we don't want to sustain where we are. We wanna move beyond doing less harm to actually leave it better and restore ecosystems. Invest in local communities, build social capital.
So that regenerative term, I'm seeing it more and more come up and I, I really love it. I, I think it's a beautiful way where our industry perhaps might be going. 
[00:19:40] Teri Carden: What an awesome picture of what we should be working toward. I mean, when we think about where we've been or where we're going, even if it's something as simple as a hike, if we can just leave it a better place while we get to enjoy it.
 
[AD READ] Let's take a quick break from our conversation for a word from New Orleans and Company. [00:20:00] New Orleans and Company is the official marketing and sales organization for the tourism industry in New Orleans. Renowned for seamlessly executing complex meetings and events with. Technical excellence with deep local expertise and strong hospitality connections.
They create unforgettable experiences that capture the city's unique spirit from world-class venues to authentic cultural moments. They connect clients. With the best resources to bring their vision to life, passionate, professional, and dedicated. New Orleans and Company is the trusted partner for those looking to host exceptional events and one of the world's most vibrant destinations.
[END AD READ]
 
Teri Carden: So I love marketing and storytelling, especially when the antagonist, you know, or the challenge is so colossal, yet it's relatable and the hero or the heroine performs in an almost superhuman way, right? I believe that [00:21:00] stories about the grind that make monumental changes for the world and the community around us should be shared.
I don't think that we should be jumping through these hoops in vain, or even just for the sake of leaving it a better place. I think it's okay to share our story and obviously some of these sustainable efforts are exactly that. They are big feat and collaborations by humans doing superhuman things. So that we can leave the world a better place.So what are some of the strategies that associations are leveraging from these efforts to enhance their brand and member engagement and kind of like sort of tying it all together, like we know, Amy, you mentioned, you know, associations need to focus on the why I. Right, but now this is a little bit more of like the how, how are they telling their story or how are they enhancing their brand and member engagement?
And honestly, I think of this question a little bit as this could be the conversation starter for your board and for your executive leadership. You know, [00:22:00] selfishly, you know, how can some organizations elevate their brand and involve members or get members more engaged through some of these practices?
Amy, you working for an association? Let's start with you. 
[00:22:11] Amy Hissrich, MA, CAE: So once the organization is moving down this direction, I, I agree that that probably would happen. What the reputational lift might be would happen during that initial conversation. But where that's gonna get sort of implemented and moved into the operational piece is further downstream.And so, you know, of course, associations are starting to put up their, their sustainability practices pages on their websites and things that you would expect. But one of the areas that I see as more opportunity does. Tied back to meetings and events because it is often where our members will interact with our sustainability decisions.So using those moments to communicate why we're making some of the changes that we may be making. So I, I'll use A SAE as an example. We intentionally did not give people reusable [00:23:00] mugs at our annual meeting last year. Even though we reduced as much as we possibly could, single use plastics with the goal towards elimination, and we did that because we wanted to incentivize them to bring their own mug.
Everybody has now seven different reusable mugs. Just giving them a higher end piece of plastic wasn't going to affect. The kind of change we were looking for, but we were sensitive to not wanting our members to not know. They wouldn't know did we make a financial decision versus did we make an intentional decision for a specific outcome Using the the meal example again, when people are waiting in line and they're seeing the options that they've been presented with, sometimes those choices were made with sustainability in mind, and so making sure.We're communicating that virginity tells the great stories of the markets or the gifts that are from local communities that could use that support new local merchants to help lift up those local communities that need that lift. Tell [00:24:00] that story about why you made those decisions. So I think that's key.
The other thing, and we haven't really talked about it. So it's it's brand, not just from the member's perspective, but from a workforce perspective. You know, of course, we're all trying to attract the best possible staff and Gen Z. I'm gonna read some data from Deloitte here. 46% have already changed or planned to change job or industry due to climate concerns.
54% say they or their colleagues are putting pressure on their employers to take action on climate change and. 64% are willing to pay more to purchase environmentally sustainable products. Of course, that Last Data Point doesn't talk about them joining the workforce, but it does show that they're willing to put money behind this.
Just underscoring how important this is for associations as they're trying to attract the best possible workforce. 
[00:24:51] Teri Carden: Wow. I mean, when personal values of the employees are hitting the pocketbooks of the companies that are hiring, that's when change [00:25:00] is really going to happen. Right. Virginia, how about you?Have you seen any of your partners elevate their brand or get their communities involved through some of the programs that they've been able to initiate? 
[00:25:13] Virginie De Visscher: And I, I do believe in the power of those brands. So from a, a national perspective, a Destin Mission Canada, where we're seeing that meetings that are designed with purpose, with responsibility and community impact in mind, they help associations stand out.
And I mentioned this earlier, the word sustainability really gets used a lot, but it's about future focused choices. It's about aligning with values that matter to your members and their communities. You're gathering in. Amy A SAE, you gave that example with the water bottles is so thoughtful, right? So when associations make those thoughtful decisions like working with local suppliers or reducing waste, or partnering with indigenous communities, it does much more than check a box.
It. Tells that story and it shows your members and stakeholders what you really stand for. You mentioned [00:26:00] the younger generations, right? They want to feel that events that they're part of are doing some good, and that emotional connection really strengthened the engagement and the loyalty of members. And we are seeing that even from the D-M-O-N-T-O perspective.
People want to belong to organizations that share their values. So we're really trying to make that easier on the Canadian side and working with our, our DMOs and our. Partners and our tools and supporting associations to create events that not only reflect operational excellence, but really push the boundaries of meaningful impact to create that stronger brand and, and resonate into the story from the beginning to the closing keynote.So I, I'm in agreement with you about that, the power of that brand. 
[00:26:44] Teri Carden: Amazing. I wish we had all afternoon to talk about this. However, I hope somebody is on their e-bike with their AirPods in listening to this and they're probably, you know, at work already if people even still do those things. [00:27:00] Themes that that popped up today.
Work over words. People place and purpose making micro changes in behavior. And that doesn't even just start with a single person. It can start around a small group of leaders at an organization. And honestly, you know, I would love to walk away with a local hand painted tiny something, you know, from a marketplace of an event I went to rather than, you know, another pen or another notepad.
And honestly, I didn't realize, but. I do think that even my tiny little efforts in my little van life, you know, are making a a difference. So, Virginia, Amy, what a beautiful testament to the power that collaboration, teamwork around a single purpose, and also setting intention for what you wanna do so that we can leave this world a better place.Both of you today, your involvement in this. Conversation has been a true testament to that. So thank you so much. [00:28:00] Thank you for being our guest today, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Associations Now Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals as we discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today.
And highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy and the US and the world. And I'm going to add this, even though it's not in my outro notes, the universe. Again, thank you so much to our episode sponsors. Visit Omaha and New Orleans and Company. For more information about our sponsors, check out their links in the show notes.
Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on sustainability in the association space, visit Associations Now [00:29:00] online@associationsnow.com.

Bringing AI to Life: Practical Steps for Associations

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Joanna Pineda of the Associations Thrive podcast chats with Rob Wenger, CEO of Higher Logic, and Amanda DeLuke, senior privacy analyst at Higher Logic. The conversation unpacks Higher Logic's own AI adoption journey, starting in October 2023, and the strategies they used to engage employees with AI tools. Rob and Amanda share practical insights on how associations can begin their AI journey, create policies, and leverage AI tools while prioritizing data privacy. Whether you're just getting started or looking to expand your AI capabilities, this episode offers actionable advice on using AI to enhance operations, improve member engagement, and drive innovation.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLKUv2GFpUY 
This episode is sponsored by Higher Logic.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
Joanna Pineda: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, I'm Joanna Pineda, CEO and Chief Troublemaker at Matrix Group International and host of the Associations Thrive podcast. Each week I interview and association our non profit CEO about their personal journey and the things their organization is doing to thrive. But today, I am thrilled to be a guest host for the ASAE podcast for Associations Now.
And I am absolutely honored because I'm going to be interviewing Rob Wenger. CEO of HigherLogic and Amanda DeLuke, Senior Privacy Analyst. We'd like to thank our episode sponsor, HigherLogic, for their support of this podcast. Rob and Amanda, welcome to the show.
Rob Wenger: Thank you. It's great to be here.
Joanna Pineda: Hey Rob, there's probably two people out there in the universe that don't know HigherLogic, and for those two people, tell us about HigherLogic.
Rob Wenger: So our main product is online community. It's a place where associations members can talk to each other, share documents, ask questions, network, all the kinds of good stuff that they might do in person. They do it online 365 days a year. And we also make marketing automation products and a bunch of other different add-ons to it, like volunteer management.
Mentor management, a lot of different things that really are geared toward helping associations and their members connect.
Joanna Pineda: Amanda, you've got an interesting title. Your title is Senior Privacy Analyst. What is a Senior Privacy Analyst at HgherLogic?
Amanda DeLuke: Yeah, so I am definitely someone that works across the company.
You know, privacy is really everyone's problem, right? Everyone works together, creating privacy champions. So I actually report to the legal team. I deal with audit and making sure we are compliant for any applicable privacy laws, also working with our sales team and our data processing agreement and working with marketing.
So really just collaboration across the company, just to make sure we're staying safe. And we're adhering to any applicable [00:02:00] laws and staying compliant. Well, that's
Joanna Pineda: really interesting because today our topic is AI. And Robyn and Vanda, I'm really curious to learn almost two sides of the AI journey at HigherLogic because I bet you're integrating AI into HigherLogic products, but I'm also really curious to learn about your AI journey as a company.
Like how do you get people trained up and excited about AI so that now it becomes part of the culture? So what do you want to start with?
Rob Wenger: Yeah, so we sort of kicked off our internal AI journey in October 2023. I had this idea and I guess in August, Hey, let's get everyone in the company using AI like for a day, like sort of one of those hackathon type thing.
And then report back on what they did that was cool. And so I started kicking this thing off and then the folks in legal and Amanda's team said, Hey, hey, let us. Think about this privacy stuff first. Don't just jump into this. So we spent a little bit of [00:03:00] time putting it together. We ended up doing a whole month.
AI October we called it.
Joanna Pineda: And this was in 2023.
Rob Wenger: 2023, right, so October 2023. And so we spent a bunch of time, Amanda's team spent a bunch of time coming up with sort of the rules of the thing. Like don't just go use any tool and don't put customer data in it and all these kinds of great things. She developed processes and stuff like that.
I'll let her talk about that because she knows way more about it than I do, but then we ended up doing it as a full month, and the idea was everyone spend 16 hours in October. Do some stuff, get in the teams of one, two or three, play with these tools and come back and report back. And what we ended up doing is having on Halloween, it was a contest with costumes and with who had the best usage of AI.
And so it was a lot of fun, but it was a big journey to get there. And I'll let Amanda talk about that because she did most of the work. I just have the big idea and she made it happen.
Amanda DeLuke: Yeah, so it's really important to establish an internal policy and, you [00:04:00] know, it's really kind of putting the guardrails on certain areas.
And what I see in legislation is they really focus on balancing innovation and safety. And I think that's what we're kind of doing here too, right? We want to innovate, but we want to do it safely. So putting in place those policies is really important and again, like collaborating with teams on what type of data do we have and what are we holding and what are we okay with as it relates to AI and what type of data goes into AI.
And I think Rob, you bring up such a good point because we talk a lot about testing and really getting our hands dirty. And I think that's so important and it's really important because AI is ever evolving, that we're always evolving our policy and evolving how we work internally as well.
Joanna Pineda: Well, let's step back here because I'm curious about this and I'll give you a little bit of background.
So I was at a luncheon with a bunch of association CEOs and a number of them said, [00:05:00] gosh, we're struggling with AI. What does that mean? And they said, we've asked our staff to use the tools and they're either getting pushback or they're not seeing the fruits of some of this experimentation. And so what would you say to an exec who says, look, I think AI can help my team be more productive, but how do they kick it off?
Like, how do you get people comfortable with the tools so that they are seeing the fruits of this amazing technology?
Rob Wenger: Couple of thoughts on that. I get some really good advice. Yes. About a year ago from an AI luminary and the gist of it was If you're trying to turn people's daily routine around, that's difficult.
It takes time, and it's difficult to get them to start. Once they start, it takes time to get it to work, right? And the advice was start higher up. Start at system level stuff, like get AI. Doing things that don't involve humans yet. I mean, humans, you want them in the loop, but it's sort of like automating things [00:06:00] as opposed to like using ChatGPT every day on your desktop, right?
So we really started there looking at all right, we're going to build a data warehouse. It's going to have all this data from around the company in it. And Amanda's part of that as to how we handle the stuff that really is like privacy related or would be data for clients. We don't really put that in there.
We put data about clients more, but keeping the privacy stuff working well, but then doing it on top of that to give us sort of answers as opposed to letting a person go into ChatGPT and just. Ask a whole bunch of questions. So starting at that end of the spectrum, you can get a lot more of those kinds of things done.
And, and, and I know we're gonna talk about the product later, but that's how we're thinking about the product as well. It's more about automation than it is about what you're used to seeing in JATTPT, for example. We have that functionality. But where we think the real bang for the buck is going to come from is having AIs do a lot of automated type tasks.
So we started there. And [00:07:00] then, of course, we do encourage our staff to use these tools. The easiest place for us to start was with our engineers. Some of the reason is because it's way behind the scenes. Like, they don't really touch client data. And they also, products of an AI are Then test it, right?
Because that's the whole point of software development. You have to write the software and develop it and test it. And if you have any, I do that work, you know, it's going to be right because it's got to go through that process. And so that is an easy place to start. They're also very technical. It's easy to get them going where it starts to become, you know, more interesting.
I'm not gonna say challenging because the uptakes been really good. But when you get into finance or you get into, you know, accounting and some of these other aspects of the business where it's not obvious, How the data is going to be used. You got to be careful, but you can see a lot of gains. So it's been quite a journey.
Like I say, we started almost a year and a half ago and it's become something where it is throughout the company. One of the thing we did in that timeframe is we actually appointed, [00:08:00] I call him the AI Czar, his actual title is chief data officer, but Steve was the head of engineering and it seems like we have a bunch of engineers, so it was like, we really need to get AI done right in the company. And so Steve has taken on the role of really shepherding it through and we brought in some now very specific AI tools. One we really like called Glean, which brings in data from across the company and then you can query it just like ChatGPT, but it's all internal to the company.
So that's really cool. And so he's been like And been pushing those kinds of things and working with Amanda's team to keep us compliant and to keep us safe. And her recommendations are also really super helpful for approaches that we take on these things. Well,
Joanna Pineda: let me ask you a question because most associations don't have the ability to just spin up a data warehouse.
You know, and say, wow, let's automate stuff. So for an association exec or a CEO who says, you know, I want to get people using these tools. How would you recommend that they put on an AI October or [00:09:00] an AI May to get people comfortable? So let's start with the policy. And Amanda, I agree with you that we start with policy, but I have clients that I've been.
thinking about their policy for a year, and in the meantime, we can't even record Zoom meetings. And nobody can use any AI tools. So I'm not sure that that's the solution. So how do you get a policy up and running fast so that you can get some stuff done, but do it safely?
Amanda DeLuke: Right. Yeah, I think again, it's going back to the data classification, right?
So you're gonna kind of use that as it relates to any laws that are applicable to you, or maybe the sensitivity of the data. So if you know that you have public data, right, or something, maybe even some internal data that is okay to be used within AI, start there. We know it's public data. We're using a public model.
We're okay with it. We let's do this in a low risk activity. Let's test it. I think there's a lot of ways to really get your hands on it without having to move up through and start using it with a high risk type of data. So I think that's the great approach here when you have a [00:10:00] AI policy to kind of leverage that type of data and where are you using it and.
It really does kind of link into the EU AI Act and other legislation that is actually banning and have like prohibited uses for any high risk data that you might put in there. So I think it's really good to focus on the general use of AI. So I think that's a way that you can really leverage getting that policy out and being able to use it very quickly.
Rob Wenger: You're going to use tools, right? I don't expect any association to create their own. LLMs or anything like that, right? You're going to use something else. And so, Amanda, I know you and your team evaluated every product that was being used in our AIA October thing and still have the approval process for any new product we use.
And so, as an example, you know, Copilot, which is Microsoft's product, and you can get that with the Office Suite. I think it's an add on, you probably know more than I do, but, but like that one, we've got a guarantee for Microsoft and none of the data [00:11:00] we put in there. And so that's an easy place to start, right?
Joanna Pineda: And Google says the same thing about Gemini.
Amanda DeLuke: Exactly, Rob. You definitely want to check the terms to make sure, if it's a private model and, you know, your data is not going to be trained on that, then it's not going to go out to the third party to be used, that data to be used. Then you're okay. Then you have those set guardrails on there and you go in with eyes wide open.
Like, okay, they're saying that this is a private model. And if it is being trained, that information is only private to you and not, being sent externally, right, or being used externally.
Rob Wenger: So we, we, we sort of think of that as a process or a procedure or guardrails is a great term for it, where we have that outlined and they did that 18 months ago, whatever it was, and we've been following it.
And then. You know, I don't know how often, daily, weekly, new things come up and the team is evaluating them and saying yes or no, right? Sometimes it takes a little time because it's not so obviously, you know, I always want to use the latest and greatest tools and the latest and greatest tools don't always have [00:12:00] the best.
Documentation on how they're getting it, so, uh, I mean, I just gotta spend a little more time to evaluate things like that, but I think that's the first step, I mean, you know, associations, they could be doing that today, even if they're not quite ready to use or jump in with both feet, putting these guardrails, because people are going to use it, right?
People are using ChatGPT and Gemni and, and all these sorts of tools, and so you want to make sure that they're using them safely.
Joanna Pineda: So what I'm hearing is, decide that you're going to have AI as a policy initiative, right, or a program initiative. Develop some policies, start simple, have some approved tools, and then give people explicit direction about using AI for specific use cases.
And give them, it sounds like you even gave them guidance about how much time to spend, so that then they either weren't spending too little time or too much time. on their AI exploration. So it sounds like what I'm hearing from you is be very explicit and intentional with the AI journey. And then at the end of it, you [00:13:00] had sharing.
So can you share some cool stuff that came out of AI October, if it's not too confidential?
Rob Wenger: There was nothing confidential. There were some amazing costumes as well, but, but yeah, it was actually the one who won the thing. I mean, she's super smart. So I'm not, I'm not saying I wouldn't have predicted it, but it was in finance.
Like she took data. And use some tools to make some really cool spreadsheets and reports out of it that took her manually every month. It took her, I want to say, two days to come up with these things. And then using this new process that mixed AI and some, you know, kind of like workflow tech tools. She got that down to a few hours.
And so, Wow. She won because, first of all, she's a finance person, but like, The technology she was able to employ was very impressive and, you know, literally saving two days a month. That's life changing. Yes, it is. And for her, especially, because she's like, well, now I don't have to do those two days work, right?
[00:14:00] She can do other things.
Joanna Pineda: She can go to lunch.
Rob Wenger: She, she doesn't. She works hard on other things because she's that person. But yes, I agree.
Joanna Pineda: Are there other cool things that you can share?
Rob Wenger: It was all on this line. So there was a lot of stuff in sales. We use a lot of tools like gong is a tool we use. We record demos and gong had some really great AI tools that were introduced then, and they've been made a lot better since where we can get summaries and we put those summaries into Salesforce so that when we looking back at the account that we can see.
You know, what was discussed, what the key points, what their pain points are, make sure that we're meeting them with what we're proposing, things like that. There were a lot of things around that. It was really taking the features of existing software. So none of this during AI October was anything we developed.
These were all features of products we already had or things like, you know, Copilot that we added for it that then we just started building on. And then the sharing of the experience was To get others to see what they could be doing, right? [00:15:00] I mean the stuff I did was pretty basic. I didn't, well it wasn't part of the thing, but it was like, I just talked to ChatGPT all day long.
I don't ask it things that are specific about clients, but I ask it all kinds of questions about things I'm thinking about doing for the products, for example. And It's really good at telling me these things. So, no, it's been awesome. Like, you can go in and just ask it, what does an association do? And then drill down for hours and find out every role, every person in every association has.
And, you know, one of the things that we're trying to do with our product then is say, okay, there's You know, if you think about jobs to be done, there's a thousand jobs to be done in an association. Can we automate 200 of them? If we can, you know, that's 20 percent of their time they get back to do more strategic things or talk directly to members or whatever it is that they want to do to further their missions or run their organizations.
Joanna Pineda: So when you say you talk to ChatGPT all day long. As you're going about your day, you'll say, let me ask ChatGPT this, or do you set aside time to have these [00:16:00] conversations? And have you named your ChatGPT?
Rob Wenger: I name all of my AIs Samantha because of the movie Her. And if anybody's Ah, yes. That is a great look at what This is going to look like in a year or two, but anyway, yes, now I do.
I actually have this little cool device. You can't really see it, but it's this little thing called the stream deck. And it's got all these programmable buttons and I have a ChatGPT button. So when I push it, it pops up in front of me and no matter where it is on my massive number of screens and windows that are running, cause I can't, I just lose it, but yeah, I use it all day long.
Like you said, in the beginning, I. I have a question and I immediately ask it. By the way, I think Google search, it's dead to me. I think it's probably dead, a dead man walking kind of thing because I ask ChatGPT everything. The only thing I Google is when I need to go someplace, an address, right, not a physical address, but a web address, and I don't know what it is or I want to type it.
I type it into the, you know, the search bar and it comes up with it. But otherwise, ChatGPT is everything. And the reason I bring that up [00:17:00] is because it is sort of a cautionary thing. I do think. Traffic driven to websites is going to really, if app rate might be too strong, but it's going to be significantly impacted by people using ChatGPT rather than Google.
Because Google drives most traffic to most websites. Right, right. And if people aren't Googling things, ChatGPT doesn't currently, I mean they have The sort of rag, here's where I got the information from. But I find that I never click on that. I've been using it constantly for over a year and I almost never click on what they tell me to click on.
So, be aware of this, like, sort of lack of traffic and think about your marketing plans are going to have to be different.
Joanna Pineda: Right. Wow. Well, this is a very, very interesting and very intentional playbook for really kind of creating an AI adoption strategy at an organization. But let's turn to higher logic, right?
So you've got this suite of products. How are you integrating AI [00:18:00] into the products, and why are you integrating AI into the products?
Rob Wenger: Yeah, so we're being very intentional about it. I think what AI is great at, like, Unparalleled great at is understanding people's language, right, talking. It doesn't have to be English, whatever language of what you're actually asking in, you know, human spoken language is so good at understanding it.
Now, the jury's out on how good it is in giving you back what you're asking for, but in understanding it's really good. So that's one of the things. And so we're, we're really driving toward things that are going to move the needle on what do our organizations do. The first thing we actually built was a little chat window inside of our marketing product and forms, where a person can say, I want to send an email, you know, to my members.
Can you help me draft it? It's just a very, I could have done that in ChatGPT and pasted it in here, but we want to put that in place. And that's very easy because you can. Click it or not click it. It writes it for you and then you can edit it before you [00:19:00] send it. So it's, you know, an easy way to get into it.
Second thing we did is we did this thing called the bulk uploader, which I've wanted to do forever, but couldn't figure out how, which is we have a resource library, right? It has thousand PDFs in it. I wanted to upload all thousand PDFs at one go. It requires a, like a description and a title and potentially tags in order to arrange it, right?
With, ah, we could easily do that. Say, read this PDF and give me a summary on it. So again, pretty simple. Worst case, it's not exactly right. You click in, you say, oh, this is, you know, this is what it's about. So it's not the end of the world if it hallucinates. It doesn't, really, we found. Especially when, over time, we've upgraded the model.
I think our overall goal though is to automate, right? So having, there's two other things that I would mention. One, we just today launched in beta our, we call it a rag bot. It's an AI assistant, right? So it uses. The theory of retrieval augmented generation to take what the model has and augment it with what the association has as [00:20:00] private information.
And the private information is used to answer the question. The public and the private is combined to answer the question. So none of that private information goes to a model to learn. It immediately forgets it. But what we do is we combine search with, okay, here's what they're asking. Let's see if we have any documents that answer it.
We return those documents and then the AI just reads it. It summarizes it and then points to them and then forgets, right? So that's the biggest one, like I said, beta launch today. We have 15 beta clients on a call with us today, starting it up. It's available to any of our clients as of today, because you can just say, I want to be in the beta, but we'll probably put it out for, you know, like everyone should turn it on in the first week of March.
And we've been beta-ing it. Alpha and Beta with IBM for about four months now. IBM is our biggest client. They also make the AI tools, right? So we built it on top of Watson X, which is one of their big AI systems. And it's been really great. And so the feedback has been amazing. Four months in, in [00:21:00] Alpha.
Let's call it with them. So we're kicking off the general beta. So
Joanna Pineda: I want to make sure I understand what this thing does. You're saying, let's take a standard LLM, a large language model, and then using the RAG model, really train it in particular on, say, an organization's research reports. Train isn't the right word, but kind of prioritize the data, right, and have access to the private information from the association so that now the members can have a conversation with this chatbot that includes the data from the research and it also understands the association's acronyms, for example, because there's a jillion ASAs and a jillion NASs and, you know, and, you know, all that stuff.
Rob Wenger: So, and the reason I point out we don't train is because it doesn't remember, right? So it's, you know. That's right. But yeah, generally, you're right. And instead of saying data, I might say information. The difference being it's not private information. It's not people's email addresses and names and addresses and phone numbers and stuff like that.
It's really just the [00:22:00] content that's created. So the Q&A, the blogs, the uploaded resources, uploaded contract samples, whatever they put into their community is available to the search. Search runs, brings back the results, and then the AI reads the results of the search and summarizes the answer to the question.
It also, by the way, behind the scenes, does a whole lot of back and forth. So it'll appear to you, and ChatGPT works this way as well, it'll appear to you like you ask a question and it gives you an answer. What really happens is you ask a question, and a whole bunch of back and forth happens with different systems.
Right. And then eventually you get an answer that we've sanitized and said, okay, this looks like the right answer. So it's more complex than you think, more complex than I thought going in. But after four months of tuning it and prompt engineering and all kinds of feature development to make sure it's good and accurate, that's what we came out with.
So that's number one. Number two, our main strategy really is to automate as many of the sort of the, the [00:23:00] small repetitive tasks that have to happen to run an organization like an association. And anything that a computer and an AI can do, let's have them do it. So that the staff doesn't have to do it.
Simple example, I asked Chia at GPT, what are the big questions that someone in the association membership department gets from members? And it came up with a list of like 50 questions. And I said, how many can an AI answer? And it was probably about half of them. An AI could just read the website and give the answer.
And so if a, if a member, instead of calling the association and asking the question, ask the chatbot, and the chatbot can give them the answer, it's done. The other half, it could also answer with a little bit of work. Like, if I said, what are the member benefits? Right? It would be able to answer that just from looking at the website, so it could tell me who that is.
If I say, when does my membership renew, it has to look up who I am and see when my membership renews and answer that question. And the third [00:24:00] level is, can you register me for the webinar next week? right? So that's a sort of what I call doing. So one is, one is reading, one is doing. When, when you get to the doing level, that's when it gets really, really cool.
And these things we call agents.
Joanna Pineda: The agentic experience. The
Rob Wenger: Agentic experience, exactly. We're making dozens of agents with hundreds of skills each. And then the AI. And we get back to what I said about understanding English really well or language really well, is when you ask, it can just match up what you're asking with its skills and it's much more like, we call it deterministic.
It's much more likely to do the thing right than if you just let it do whatever it wants to do.
Joanna Pineda: Now let's take a quick break from the conversation for a word from our episode sponsor, HigherLogic. Is your association struggling to keep your members connected and engaged? HigherLogic has partnered with associations for nearly two decades to help them demonstrate member [00:25:00] value, increase engagement, and support their missions.
Their comprehensive HigherLogic Thrive platform was built to help associations create a complete member ecosystem and leverage data to personalize their member experiences. With one easy to use system, you can support all your offerings from your online community to your marketing campaigns, to your job board, to your mentoring and volunteering program and more.
Plus, their built in AI features, automated workflows, and robust analytics will save you tons of time so you can focus less on manual tasks and more on high impact strategic work. HigherLogic Thrive has everything associations need to gain real time insights to keep members connected, engaged, and coming back for more.
Well, I got another question for you. So within the HigherLogic community itself, there's lots and lots of data about what members are interested in, what they're saying, what they're thinking. Are you developing tools [00:26:00] so that the associations can get some insight into what's keeping them up at night, and how do you balance data concerns?
Amanda, maybe this is for you.
Rob Wenger: Yeah, I'll let her answer the concerns question. I'm not concerned but then I have her Backstop. So I don't need to be the reason I'm not concerned though is because it's the data. It's the organization's data, right? So we're not giving them anything other than what they already should have access to we're just doing it in a way That they can you know digest it, right?
So I don't think of that so much as AI as I do analytics
Joanna Pineda: Oh, that's true. Okay,
Rob Wenger: so we actually have a strategy we call the three A's it's AI analytics and automation They're not independent things, obviously, but that's how we think of everything we're working on in those categories, right? So this is what I would say in analytics, but you're right.
All the interactions, we expect there to be more interactions. With members and the association because of AI because they can start to think of this AI [00:27:00] Assistant as someone a companion who sits next to them that can answer questions for them Now what's interesting about associations though is I originally when I was thinking about this was like this is gonna be a big threat to associations because You've got no traffic being driven.
You've got these AI chatbots like, like ChatGPT and Gemini being trained on all the information in the world that has access to. Like, why do I need to go to an association to get any information? Well, there's two reasons. One is that there is all that private information, right? The stuff behind the file, right?
So you've got your journal, your spec, your standard, all the conversations, all the blogs, all the official publications of the organization. Exactly. So you've got all this content. that it can't get to, so it can't learn from. Even stuff like textbooks, in theory, are copyrighted, so it can't know that stuff, right?
So associations still have all the knowledge. And the second one is associations are the only place where you can continue to develop this knowledge, right? So I think of it as like, The, the best things associations have done [00:28:00] is gathered all of the world's experts in that thing in one place, right? So I started thinking about this with community, and this is the reason for community, right?
If I have a community for my association, my members can ask all the other members a question, right? So you're a junior member or you just have a hard question. You hope someone has that experience. You post in the community, the person has that experience or that, that expertise answers the question and it's great, you've got your answer.
The future now is, though, that now the, the bot could answer that question. Not ChatGPT, but the association's bot can answer that question. And so, there's a lot of value that's been created over all these years between all of the different content properties that an association has that you put into a bot, and now it's much easier to get that information out than it is to search.
But then, what happens if you can't get it, right? Because no one's asked the question before, but some spread is out there. So we had this cool feature, I think this is Awesome. It was my idea. So, you know, obviously I think it's awesome, but it's a button at the bottom that says, [00:29:00] not getting the answer you need, ask your fellow humans.
The idea of it is the bot goes and does its search and it tries to find an answer and it can't find one and what do you do? You push that button and it drafts a post to the community of basically what you were conversing with it with. It makes a summary and asks the community. This
Joanna Pineda: makes a phone call to a, to a human.
Rob Wenger: Phone's a friend. Phone's a friend. Phone's a friend is a good word. I might have to change it. Phone a friend.
Joanna Pineda: So, Amanda, let me ask you a question. So I do have some clients and I've heard from some association execs that are concerned about member data. Rob doesn't seem concerned. Are you concerned? And what safeguards are vendors like HigherLogic putting in place?
Amanda DeLuke: Yeah, so I think, again, it kind of goes back to the, the data classification and understanding what data is going to go into the model, and if it's even, you know, storing that data, if it's, right, it just, it's able to just, you know, go away and [00:30:00] you can ask a question and doesn't store it, so that's going to be really important, so keeping everything private, and the other, I would say, probably just the, the data classification and making sure it's a private model, it's not training your data.
Private model, right. Right.
Joanna Pineda: Right.
Amanda DeLuke: Yeah. And then also like some other things just to consider is just to make sure that when you are using AI, you're adhering to your current process. Like you shouldn't have to be changing your process. You should just be able to adhere to whatever applicable laws there are and, and whatever you, whatever you have.
For guardrails for your vendors, make sure that that's all in place. And if it is, then you can use it safely. I mean, this is one of my favorite features. I get so excited when you talk about this, Rob, because I'm like, this is a perfect use case because being able to leverage this data is really just going to allow in automating things is really going to allow.
Associations that have to wear so many hats be able to focus more on the human elements that are important to the business, [00:31:00] right? So I think all of this can be done very safely as long as again, because associations have different types of data that they're dealing with, it's just making sure that you identify the types of data.
Do your due diligence, making sure that it's private and it's not training a model and that it's staying internal. And then as long as you follow all of those guardrails, I think you can really do this safely. As well as like, if you do have something that you have concerns about, make sure to talk to your teams about that.
And then also you may just need to be transparent. Talk about in your terms of use or in your privacy policy, like, this is what's being used and just being very transparent and upfront. I think that's really important too.
Joanna Pineda: So what I'm hearing from you is have a conversation with your vendors or your industry partners to say what's going to happen to my data.
Is it private? You know, show me your terms of use and your, and your privacy policies so that I can be comfortable that we're not training the LLMs on my member data. Yeah.
Rob Wenger: What makes it easier [00:32:00] and harder for us, easier because there's a thing called SOC 2, right? Which is something we have to comply with.
Well,
Joanna Pineda: Explain what SOC 2 is.
Amanda DeLuke: Yeah, the way you explain it, it's, it's basically taking a look at all of the controls that you have in place at your business, right? And making sure they're, it's showing proof and accountability of those controls being in place and that they're working properly. So that's usually, you know, how I would describe SOC 2 audit.
And there's different types of SOC 2 and type 1, type 2, type 3, right? So depending on the type of data you're processing, but yeah. You want to be testing those controls to make sure they're working properly.
Rob Wenger: Yeah, so the good part about Suck2 is that because the guardrails have been set up over a period of many, many years, probably a decade now, I think, we have good checks and balances and we have people like Amanda who make sure we follow it.
It's a pain for me because I always want to violate them, not for real, like I don't want to purposely violate them, but I want to do something that [00:33:00] she says. No, you can't do it, which is great, but you know, it both speeds us up and slows us down. So an association probably doesn't need to and doesn't want to take on the burden of becoming SOC 2 compliant, but their vendors should, right?
So most of the organizations I think in the association space are certified SOC 2 compliant in one level or another. As long as they have that, they shouldn't be too worried about it, but they might want to be informed about it.
Joanna Pineda: Well, Rob and Amanda, I could talk to you guys all day, but before we go, what's two things that you would recommend to an association exec who says, I'm just getting started?
What should be in their playbook?
Rob Wenger: Yeah, I think number one is what we talked about earlier. You have a plan for how to deal with it. Even if you're not going to do it right away, make the plan. Because then you, you know what it's going to entail. The process of the planning will get you where you want to go.
And the thing I tell everybody, whether they're an association executive or my mom, is just use one of these tools. Play with [00:34:00] it. Like I said, I replaced Google with it, and I never looked back. It wasn't overnight, though. You know, a month ago, I would start to Google something, not get an answer, and be like, wait, why am I doing this?
It takes some time to build those muscle memory, so I would say, encourage your staff to just take that journey at least, and then you can become more sophisticated. I would also say, and I'll let Amanda talk more about this, but when we finished October, At the end of it, we put on a webinar for the association world to just like hear what we'd done and, and all of the sort of artifacts of that, the rules and regulations and stuff that Amanda and her team produced, we made available.
So if you do want to start, I'm not suggesting necessarily doing it in October, especially because I wouldn't wait till October, but if you can do, you know, April. Those resources are out there from us or there, there's a lot of other sources and Amanda, you're the expert on that. So,
Joanna Pineda: yeah, Amanda, you got the final word.
Amanda DeLuke:
So [00:35:00] clear company statement and communication is really important. Like, why are we doing this? Like, what is your scope? I think being very clear on how you communicate, what is important? Why do we want to use this AI and how are we going to benefit from it? So I think just answering those questions up front is really important, and it gives everyone sort of the fire to want to start using it and getting really excited.
So that's something that I felt when we started using AI October. I'm like, Oh my gosh, we have something clear coming from Rob, and we were all excited about using it. So I think that's really important. That's one step. And then really, I'm going to just hone in again on that data classification.
Understand the types of data that you're holding and the vendors processing it. Cause I've, I've seen some of these vendors, it's sort of happening like with this Trojan horse thing where AI just gets turned on by default and you don't know about it. I've seen that happen where you have to go in and actually manually turn it off.
Or I think that's really important is to be able to know your data. [00:36:00] Know where the data is being processed and know your vendors processing it, especially as it relates to AI.
Joanna Pineda: Wow. Well, I have enjoyed myself tremendously during this interview. I've learned a whole lot too. I want to thank you both, Rob and Amanda.
And thanks to ASAE for letting me host and being part of this amazing conversation.
Rob Wenger: Thanks for having us. It was a lot of fun being here and yeah, happy to answer any questions anytime.
Joanna Pineda: Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact that associations have on the economy, the U.
S., and the world. Again, we'd like to thank our episode sponsor Higher Logic. For more information, visit them online at higherlogic.com. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And for more information on AI in the association space and how it's transforming our [00:37:00] community, visit associations now online at associationsnow.com.

Building Better Governance: Strengthening Boards and Leadership in Associations

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host David Coriale of the Reboot IT podcast sits down with Mark Graham, vice president of Association Solutions at ASAE, and Paul Pomerantz, FACHE, FASAE, managing director of the Association Governance Institute (AGI) and former CEO of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. They discuss AGI’s mission to streamline resources, build a robust content library, and develop educational courses to elevate governance in associations. Topics include CEO-board relationships, executive transitions, board operations, strategic oversight, and governance structures. They also explore assessments for CEOs and boards, the pivotal role of organizational culture, and how technology and cybersecurity play into effective governance. The episode wraps with actionable advice for fostering a healthy governance culture and navigating the evolving needs of associations.
 
Check out the video podcast here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_0qljegbl4
 
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
 
Transcript
 
Dave Coriale  0:03  Hello everyone. I'm Dave Coriale, president of DelCor and host of another podcast, Reboot IT, where we talk about all things technology for the association and 501 C community. Today I am guest hosting this podcast, and I am very excited about our two guests. One of them is Mark Graham, who is the vice president of association solutions at ASAE, at the Center for Association Leadership. And the other is a leader I've been a fan of for a long time, Paul Pomerantz. He has been a CEO of several health and medical associations before this, and he is currently the managing director of the Association Governance Institute. Let's get going. Let's listen in on the conversation. I think there is plenty to gain from hearing what they have to say, and here we are having the conversation I've been looking forward to for weeks now, ever since this was scheduled. Paul, Mark, thank you for taking your time. I know you're both very busy to talk about something that's coming up and very important, the Association Governance Institute, that is one of the main topics. I'm sure we'll weave and bob through a couple others along the way. But like always, I like to start my podcast with what are we talking about? So let's talk a little bit about the Association Government Institute, what it is, etc. Mark, I think you'd be great to lead that part of the conversation. So why don't you give us a little bit of background and where we're headed here? 
Mark Graham  1:23  Sure. So the Association Governance Institute, AGI, the brainchild of Michelle Mason, wanted to create a brand new home for governance, for associations. ASAE has done a pretty good job at governance, but we wanted to really focus on it and really have a terrific resource library. What we did was we always created, like a brand new organization. Why we called it the Association Governance Institute, although it will be part of your ASAE membership, and what it does, it creates a library of resources that are all focused on just governance. If you search as a website now, and you search governance, you'll get a whole host of content. But what we've done is we really drill down to a bunch of categories of governance, six categories of governance and three to five subcategories of governance, because governance is quite complicated. There's an art and science to it, and we hope to address both of that with the Association Governance Institute. So let me give you a few examples of the categories. The CEO-board relationship. We're talking about. The CEO evaluation, the compensation, the contracts we get into the culture of boards. One of the major responsibilities with board is to hire and manage the CEO. So we have a whole section on executive transitions, operations. We're talking about the soup and nuts of how boards operate. We have tons of content and sub content on all these topics to round it out. We have strategy and oversight and structure, so we've really used a lot of our advisory committees of CEOs and consultants to help us devise this whole new institute and how to organize all the content. That's the content part of it. But we're also including new tools with AGI and new educational courses. Paul and I have always joked, this is like creating a brand new organization. We started last January, and we're ready to launch next month.
Paul Pomerantz  3:06  Really exciting stuff. And just to add to this part of the thinking behind this, especially as this was first being developed by Michelle and myself and some conversations. The idea was twofold. One, ASAE has a lot of resources, but they're in different places, so the idea is bring it together and really emphasize it, shine a spotlight on it, and make it easier to find, more accessible, and then give it a place to grow. So we already have a great set of tool kits. But what's missing? What needs to be developed? What other tools can we develop? So this will provide that kind of focal point for it. The other thing is that you think about the CEO job, and CEO is successful, if his governance is successful, if the CEO and the board are working in unison, they're aligned, goals are clear, resources are being allocated according to the goals and the plan of the organization, then you have a healthy organization and it functions. Things break down when governance doesn't work. And so in our view, job one for a CEO is to make sure that governing process works; that there's communication; there's transparency; there's clarity. All those types of things. And part of our goal is to really support the CEO in carrying out that part of their position, the CEO and the staff team in other industries. corporate setting. You have the National Association of Corporate Directors in the healthcare setting. You have other governance resources. Associations do not have that kind of focus, and we're bringing that kind of focus to it.
Mark Graham  4:43  Yeah. And as Paul says, this is a starting point. In January, this thing will continue to evolve and grow with the help of our advisory committees. Paul has been instrumental, my partner in crime, if you will. He's a bright star when it comes to governance knowledge. So he's helped guide this thing from the very beginning.
Dave Coriale  5:01  No better guide out there. So I do have a question. You mentioned content. Two questions. One's about content. You mentioned that you've gone through and you've curated the content. So this sounds like it's new content, and probably a mix of some existing content. And so I want to hear a little bit more about that, as well as the assessments that you mentioned. What type of assessments would one find in the AGI?
Mark Graham  5:23  Sure. So the content is divided into a couple of different categories. You have a lot of opinion and articles thought leadership on best practice and governance and all those categories that I just mentioned. We also have how-tos, checklists and case studies. These are all tools you can give people to help them do better. In governance, I'll focus on maybe one area: executive transitions. There is a lot of guidance. We've been talking about CEO succession for decades and how to improve it. So we've gone through and curated all the best articles on CEO succession. We provide some checklists on CEO succession. For instance, very sadly, sometimes there may be an abrupt departure of a CEO. They may be terminated, they may quit. Sadly, may even pass away. We have checklists of what you should do, and each one of those instances, executive transition also involves a CEO contract. So we have whole sections on contracts from the board's perspective and the CEO's perspective, what to look for, what to negotiate, what's important, what you really focus in on? And of course, there is compensation. We have lots of tools and compensation philosophy. We even have a whole practice built around helping organizations determine the right compensation for their CEO. So that's just one of those areas that we really drill down and focus in on. The content. So we provide the opinions, the articles, the how tos, the checklists. We do this for every single one of the categories. Like in financial management, we have 20 questions a new board member should be asking about the financial situation of an organization. This is good for someone who's maybe new to governance and doesn't know what they're doing. So it's a good primer. We could talk about all the content, almost this entire podcast, who does just so much of it, governance. I went into this knowing a little bit about governance, and now I think I'm almost an expert, almost nearly half as smart as Paul, because there's so much to governance, the science of it, there's so much to it. And where people mainly get tripped up is the art of governance. And so we hope to be taken care of the whole package. 
Paul Pomerantz  7:22  I couldn't agree more. And one of the great areas of content that we're really proud of, and we go through everything like Mark says: legal, roles and responsibilities, all these things. But one of the areas I'm very proud of is the board selection and development piece. And this is the area where Mark Engel and some other folks have been leaders in this area and have really created publications and tools. Well, all those are going to be curated into this website. So the whole idea of, how do you evaluate board trends and board needs? How do you recruit for a board house is an optimal leadership development process? How do you orient and train and own board members? How do you evaluate their performance? All those kinds of really rich tools that haven't been easy to locate will be part of our resource center.
Dave Coriale  8:13  And I think that's a critical piece. You just pulled out the easy to locate, right? So the ease of use of this resource center, and especially if it's being redesigned, or being designed from the ground up right now, as opposed to taking something and trying to fix it, always yields a better user experience. And speaking of the users, who is this targeted?  Is it the CSO, the chief staff officer? Or is it the board? Is it both? Who's the target of the resource for, what are most of the resources for?
Mark Graham  8:34  Really anyone involved in government. So primarily, is going to be the chief executive and board members, but increasingly, especially large organizations, they'll likely have a chief governance officer or someone who's a significant portion of their time is dedicated towards governance. These are for people who aspire to the C-suite or aspire to serve on a board that a lot of people just think they're going to learn on the job. And I can't stress enough that's the wrong way to do it. You don't want to start making mistakes on the job. When it comes to governance, you want to go in fully educated on how this stuff works and where the landmines are. I've seen too many CEOs, chief executives get tripped up because they didn't know what they didn't know. 
Dave Coriale  8:36  Yeah, it certainly makes sense. I know how to run my business, but I've been on a board, and the orientation was, you know, "this is our cadence of meeting. This is how we do this process. This is who is the head of this. This is who's the head of that." That's very different than what I'm hearing here in terms of giving the team the resources they need to really ensure that the governance is quality, right? The assessment piece, the onboarding piece, you're talking about the content that I could have as a board member reviewed to understand my role better and how I contribute better. That's what it sounds like. We're bridging the gap between I'm on a board to what's the most successful version of the board.
Paul Pomerantz  9:53  One of the critical audiences we had in mind, CEOs, board members. But also--so and Mark mentioned this--that governance professional, the chief governance officer, director of governance, sometimes manager board operations. They have different titles, and most of them are that, like everyone I met, is a supreme professional, but they all come from different backgrounds. They all have different experiences. And when people are introduced to this job, they may not have all the foundational elements. We developed a course that will be offered asynchronously, called Introduction to Association Governance, and it was originally for this group of governance staff professionals sometimes new to the job, just to give them a common framework to operate from. But as we've begun to develop this course, realize it's of interest to new CEOs. And also CEOs are telling I'd like to share this with our board. In this course, the station in this course, which will be ready in the coming weeks, we'll have legal fundamentals, roles and responsibilities of the board, board selection and development and a function of a board meeting, what you need to do before, during and after. So the tools, as you can see, are really intended for everybody who's part of the governance process.
Mark Graham  11:17  Yeah, offering a micro credential in that course you can get certified in governance.
Dave Coriale  11:23  That's awesome. You mentioned that course is asynchronous, right? Are there in-person events also associated with this resource?
Mark Graham  11:30  With AGI, there is. Where ASAE has two exceptional governance in-person courses already that have a long history and a really great programs. Blend Teck program, CEO Symposium, the one mark Engel runs Exceptional Boards. But we have added another one called the Governance and Strategy Forum within the McKinley Group, which is going to have its inaugural meeting of April 29 here in Washington, DC. It's a two day in person event. It's designed to build the strong partnership between the CEO and the elected leaders, typically the, of course, the chair. But these are also open to incoming chairs. These in person meetings we hear time and time again are terrific to build those bonds with the chief staff and those elected leaders.
Dave Coriale  12:18  That's awesome. There's a micro credential associated with this in the in-person piece. I know that a lot of work has gone into that new in person piece that you just talked about, that's happening in April, and I'm sure that the participants will come out with much more than they thought they would when they went into it. And I'm aware of the symposium and other pieces that you talked about, and they've always had a great track record. So before we wrap up on AGI, one of the other things that I remember hearing about was some assessments. Earlier, you mentioned there are some assessments too that are related to it. Who's the target audience assessments, and what might one expect to put into it and get out of it? If you could elaborate on that a bit. 
Mark Graham  12:57  Certainly. At launch, we're going to have two assessments, but we have more planned. But at launch, we're gonna have two assessments. One is a CEO assessment the board would use to evaluate the chief executive, and the other is the board self-assessment, where the board would evaluate themselves on maybe 11 areas to see how they do, how they function, how they work, and compare it against thousands of other organizations who've taken this assessment as well. So the CEO assessment is very cool. It's four parts. It's a custom tool there where you could enter in your own performance evaluation of your chief executive. Every organization is different. They have their own KPI and goals. Well, there's certain things that are just fundamental to every organization. There is, how will you do the job, the administration of a CEO role. There is the leadership qualities, the personal leadership qualities, your interpersonal skills, your communication skills. And then, of course, we have accomplishments and challenges that are present for every organization as well. So this tool is an online tool that board members fill out at the end of this survey, they take on the chief executive. They get a report, and also the CEO takes this survey as well, so the CEO and the board can compare how the CEO perceived themselves in these areas compared to how the board viewed the CEO in these areas. And the other the board self assessment tool focuses in on, I think it's 11. Sorry, we are working on so much here at AGI sometimes it's hard to remember the exact number and details of these parts. But if focusing on how the organizations, the culture, the meetings, the policies, financial oversight, and how well board members think they do in these areas, and again, then we compare it to. No board is perfect. Some boards are great. Some boards are okay. And so what we're going to get with this report is we're going to see how you stack up again. Stack up against a bunch of other organizations. So these two tools were created, actually a long time ago in partnership with board source, but ASAE has now taken them in house, and now they'll be part of AGI.
Dave Coriale  14:56  Understood. And what's the time commitment on the organization or the executives part on those types of self assessments?
Mark Graham  15:02  About 30 minutes, 30 minutes. It's a thing, where you can jump in on your phone, fill out few things, come back. But if you sat down, really wanted to push for it, it's about 30 minutes on each one. There is some administration for the CEO assessment, because some of those questions are custom assessment questions. But once those are done, the board member can expect about 30 minutes. It's a good tool they can use year after year and track their progress, board self assessment and the CEO assessment, so they can see where they're doing better and where they still have some work to do.
Paul Pomerantz  15:32  It's a wonderful tool. I've seen it used. I've used it on my own board, and I've worked with other boards. And what it does is it provides that opportunity for the board to give itself feedback. This is a board self-assessment, and boards could be their most critical evaluators. And so it's one thing for a CEO that say, you guys could be doing better. It's another one for the board itself to look at this and say, we could be doing better. And so when properly done and facilitated, these instruments are incredible because the board identifies not only its strengths but its weaknesses, and gets to compare itself with its peers. And so that's really eye opening for board members. The eyes light up. They get excited, and they're engaged about how do we move forward? How do we become better? It's a great tool for self improvement. 
Mark Graham  16:21  These tools are completely confidential. The board members are not going to know who answered to what questions, so it really gets some honest feedback of the CEO and of course, the board. 
Dave Coriale  16:30  Yeah, that's a really important point to make in ways you want to ask also, one of the things we love to do in this community is benchmark ourselves against others, right? Will there be as you collect data across time, even though it's anonymous, will there be the opportunity to see where your ratings stand against other organizations?
Mark Graham  16:48  Yeah. In fact, in every report, you will see every single category, almost every single question, how you stack up against all of your peers, because this poor self assessment has been administered for gosh, I drew my math here, 16 years, we have an enormous amount of data, awesome to pull from. The CEO assessment is not a benchmarking tool. And it shouldn't be, for probably reasons. But the board self-assessment, you'll be able to see how you do, yeah, and year to year, if you do the report every year, every couple years, you can just go back to the little report and see how you did. 
Dave Coriale  17:18  So speaking of how you do, is one of the key aspects of this. How are we doing as a board? How are we doing as a chief staff officer? Paul, you started this thread. You started this conversation around the CEO is successful, or the chief staff officer is successful when governance is solid, paraphrasing a little bit there. But you're saying governance a good place. CEO has much more likely chance of success. And I know you also mentioned earlier, culture playing a role in that, and that's something that I feel like you've focused on. You've written some articles about it, you've talked about it. I've heard you talk about culture, fair assessment, fair statement. That's important as far as success goes beyond just the operational aspect. 
Paul Pomerantz  17:56  Yeah, I would say it's probably the most important aspect and the least well defined. 
Dave Coriale  18:01  I was going to ask you to start by defining what when you talk about culture, how do you define it? 
Paul Pomerantz  18:06  Greatly, it's like that famous quote by Justice Potter Stewart. I notice when I'll know it when I see it. He was describing pornography in those days. So probably not a great analogy, but culture, we're going to end up with an explicit rating, exactly, you know, and your kids listening to this. But no, all kidding aside, the culture really refers to what groups value, what they believe in, and how they behave towards each other and to others, and it really reflects The norms of behavior. And what's interesting is that culture is not defined by what people say they are. So one of the big misinterpretations out there is, well, the board values, right, or the organization values they represent your culture. They may not, because the culture is really how you live, how you behave, people. And I'll say Mark Engel again, he has assured with me, and I truly believe it, that there are three pillars to governance, strategy, structure and culture. And the if you think about it, strategy is your direction, structure is the hardware, right? How's the board organized? How many board members are there? How's it staff, all those kinds of things. But culture is the software. It's really how it works. It's the operating system that really makes the board operate. And the literature is full of examples of when culture doesn't work properly. They go back in the last couple years, we've had issues on the media with the National Association of Realtors, where culture broke down, the organization was blind to activities that took place within the organization that was very costly for a reputation of the National Association of Realtors, certainly in the corporate sector and the for profit industry, many examples and we can point to. To really the very high profile experience with Enron, going back to the turn of the century, where, you know, that led to really the downfall of that company, because the board was not paying attention to things it should have, and accounting was hidden. It was falsified. And really resulted not only in the downfall of that company, but new laws and regulations such as the Sarbanes-Oxley Act that really required a high degree of transparency, and we can go through examples in this article I wrote for more brief, there are many examples where it's just very costly, where, when the culture breaks down, it could be extremely costly for the organization. Interestingly, people would say, what's a an example of the good cultures of people getting along? Is it people being very civil with each other? And I'd say, no, it's really the reverse. It's where boards are inquisitive, where there's healthy disagreement, where there's healthy curiosity, there's robust discussion of issues where people are held accountable. There's accountability of the staff. There's accountability to each other, and the board is engaged in a very rigorous process of self evaluation, evaluation of the organization and accountability. They're asking the tough questions about their industry. They're asking the tough questions about the organization and how well they're doing. They're asking tough questions about their competitors in the competitive environment that they're in. I think we sometimes falsely seek in our organizations a degree of camaraderie that may not necessarily be healthy. And one of the things we talk about in the article is that association boards are especially vulnerable to this false sense of harmony. And the reason is, in associations, you got people from the same profession or same industry, and we're less likely to be critical to call each other to account, because I'm going to rely on you. Let's say you're in my profession to help me to advance further. I want you to like me. I don't want to call you out, because then you'll call me out. But in the contrary, that false harmony can be very detrimental to the organization. So I hope that makes sense, and what we talk about in the article is, how do you evaluate your culture, and then what are some of the tools and resources that are available to help check in and improve that culture? It's not all that hard. It's really just asking the right questions. The board self-assessment is clearly a tool you can use the CEO selection and evaluation. That's a very critical resource you want to make sure that the CEO has been somebody who has had experience building a culture, building a partnership with the board, sets the model for a healthy culture. In an organization, you want to recruit board members who have similar types of experiences that are good at this. They understand what they're trying to do. Look at the board agendas over time. That's another tool as well. Boards with a healthy culture will spend more time on strategic items and generative items. They're going to spend more time exercising their curiosity and asking tough questions. Boards that have a weaker culture are going to spend their time on operational issues and micromanagement. Why? Because it's easy way of getting out of the tough issues. You really want the board focused on the tough issues. Another thing that many boards are doing is they're bringing on public members and other perspectives to create a diverse, diverse points of view. So if you have a board that's we're all from the same industry, we're all used to talking to each other, bring in different perspectives, bring in a member of the public, bring in a customer of members, either as a member of the board or on an infrequent basis, to help challenge the board and then lean into the bad news. What I found is boards tend to avoid the bad news until it's too late. What you want to do is, if you had a bad record financially. You want to talk about that. What does that mean? The industry is facing some tough times. What are you going to do, and how are you going to address that? That you've had a staff engagement survey, there are some signs of stress among the staff. How do you present that to the board and talk about that? But leaning into the bad news, having those frank conversations is very much part of that.
Dave Coriale  24:21  So there's a lot in there, right? I'm trying to listen and parse all the way through that, and it all made sense. You asked in the quite in the middle of that, you said, that does that? If this makes sense, it all made very good sense. Culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? So culture is one of those things that you have to have your eye and it's also always known to be one of those things that it's really hard to change. You can't execute a new culture like you use the word. You have to build it. You have to push towards it. And you tied that to the values of the organization. And when there's misalignment between values and action, is what it sounded like to me, fair assessment, that we have values, that there. The website we're done with that. Let's move on. That's a critical piece that can fall apart when you're not paying attention to it.
Paul Pomerantz  25:07  Exactly. I've seen too many boards say and come up with values that don't really reflect who they are. So our value is customer service. Our value is civility. Now you really got to break down, what do you really mean and what do you truly live? And I'm going to modify your quote there, culture eats strategy. I'm gonna say culture eats CEOs. What happens is, if a CEO knows how to manage culture, understands culture knows what to look for, they're gonna do well. But what I see too often is that CEOs will enter organizations not really familiar with the culture that they're walking into, not sure how to measure it, not sure of their compatibility with the culture, and try to redefine strategy or their role or change culture without really knowing how to do it. And we see those stories all the time, and having a cultural competency is really important for a successful CEO, particularly as it comes to working with governance. 
Mark Graham  26:08  Well, we'll add though, culture can sometimes be the third rail in organization management, because a CEO goes in there, they can see the culture is not well, but to change it, they may have to tackle their own board of directors. I've seen many associations CEOs going, Nope, it's just not worth it. I'm going to just go with the status quo. And sadly, that's really one of the reasons why we want AGI to be successful. We believe in excellent governance. We want to give people the tools to maybe tackle that third rail, even though it's a little intimidating. But if culture's eating things again, yeah, I think it is eating CEOs and strategy, probably a few other things. 
Dave Coriale  26:43  It's such a big word, and so I'm wondering if there is an assessment. Yeah, I think you mentioned there is an assessment. Are there ways to assess culture as a new CEO walking in? Because one of the ways we define it is how work gets done. Right here at Delco, we say culture is how our work gets done, and we're not talking about the process that we go through. We're talking about what you talked about, Paul, in terms of whether or not we communicate with each other frankly and honestly, or if we just want to get along for the moment, whether or not we challenge each other. That helps us define what we mean by culture. But in the AGI content and assessments, how does the CEO get help assessing their culture? 
Mark Graham  27:19  I think when Paul and I first adopted the board self assessment and took a look at it, we made some minor tweaks to it, to update it, modernize it for 2024. But he and I saw a huge opportunity to really upgrade this. So we're already in the planning stages of version 2.0 of the board assessment, and really drilling down on culture, because we both believe it's very important, because this is a benchmarking tool, you need to make these changes like once or twice. You can't just make iterative changes to a benchmarking tool. So we made very small changes to it for this first version, but this next version that Bucha and I were working on in 2025 we hope to really drill down on culture. I'm not sure if it's going to help CEOs going into an organization, unless executive recruiters require boards to take this self assessment before entering into a search phase. But at least when they're in there, the board, the CEO and everyone who reads this report might know where they're weak and where this improvement to be had
Paul Pomerantz  28:17  And I'll add to that that the courses that ASAE offers at CEO Symposium, Exceptional Boards. These offer opportunities to talk about culture. I think there's good content in there that Glenn Techer and Mark Engel and others offer that allow for that frank discussion about things. The other thing I'll say is that if you come in as a new CEO and you say, All right, I'm going to address this culture, and I'm going to have that changed in six months. That's not how it works, a slow process. You work by example. You work iteratively. Your organization will live by the example you set. By your example of transparency. By your example of collaboration, your example of how you raise issues and discuss issues, you'll begin to shape the culture that you want to achieve. I think that the organization I came from, the American Society of Anesthesiologists, we had a very cumbersome structure. It was nothing that anybody would say that they would want as a governing structure, House of Delegates, large board. We had a even a third tier, because with the board was so large, called our administrative council. But what worked was the culture. We really emphasized having those discussions. We emphasize accountability, we emphasize transparency, we lean in the controversial items, and the members really appreciated it and were able to get things done. And I think that's how you do it. You set the example you build trust, one board at a time, one president at a time, and you'll get to where you want to get to.
Mark Graham  29:46   Paul is talking about building this culture. AGI is going to give people tools to have room to build that culture. Paul led a webinar that will be on AGI called we love this title. Everyone hates your board meeting and. One of the tidbits in there from one of the participants was they give video presentations of the reports from the organization in advance to the board meeting, and they can watch it beforehand, and they can answer questions about it at the board meeting, but the CFO is not going to the board meeting and giving a financial report eating up valuable time. It's a valuable report. I don't want to take away from that, but if you're giving more time in the board meeting time, by having that information presented at events, we're giving you more time for the strategic discussions that you need to have, the long term discussions changing the culture of the industry and organization. So practical tips can be found inside AGI to be that room. 
Dave Coriale  30:38  Doing this work of challenging each other and having these conversations like you're describing without being a jerk. That's really the success of the culture you need to build, which is challenging each other, being candid, leaning in, like you said, to the problems, but everyone needs to be civil and in our environment, in our association, 501c culture, as a community. It is we're generally nice people, right? So it challenges us to be challenging to each other, but fortunately, we're mostly nice people who can do it in a way where it's not going to turn into something that's acrimonious among the participants. So hopefully that's the outcome. But culture is not a new word, certainly. Is this a trend, though? Are CEOs paying more attention to culture than they did 15 years ago. Do you feel like I think so?
Paul Pomerantz  31:24  What I'm seeing is more attention to that and really trying to understand the work that's getting done. That's a discipline generally within the business world. In general, you go into a lot of organizations now, bigger ones, they have corporate anthropologists and business schools are teaching business anthropology, and I think to some degree, all that is heading into the association world as well. Some of the consultants that I'm familiar with have really begun to pay attention to culture, and a lot of the people that Mark and I are working with a CEO Advisory Committee really are attuned to the culture in the organization. And like you say, how work gets stuck.
Mark Graham  32:03  Search teams are created tuned to this as well, and when they place the chief executive, it's in their best interest to have a long, fruitful, happy relationship. So they don't want to put someone into a mismatch. So they're doing assessments and doing the evaluations on the board and the CEO to find out a better marriage.
Paul Pomerantz  32:20  Yeah. Well, what I would say is that CEOs who may succeed on business measures, and they may succeed on culture measures, they'll get fired for failing on culture business, they'll be more forgiven. And I've seen this time and time again, where you see an organization with stronger results, but you have a cultural mismatch, and it just doesn't work. I would say that this is the most critical of skills for effective governance.
Dave Coriale  32:49   I want to hit on one more topic before we wrap up, and that is, and Paul, you were nice enough earlier to bring me into the conversation by talking about the hardware and software, because I'm a tech person, right? That's what we do here at Delcor. Word technology alignment with mission, vision and business objectives. And one of the things that I've seen in governance is a struggle between the staff and the boards as it relates to the technology integrating with the strategy. I've said this a million times, that 10 years ago, we as technologists were order takers. Tell us what you want. We'll build it or buy it or buy it for you. Good luck. Now there's an opportunity for true strategic participation and saying, "Tell us your vision, tell us your objectives. Let us help you with the fidelity around the edges of that because we might know things you don't in setting that strategy or setting that objective." We might know capabilities that the organization could have. What do you feel like the role of the board and the governance body is as it relates to technology within a well functioning organization?
Paul Pomerantz  33:49  I don't think it's ever been more critical. And it's funny what you say. I go back to when I first started in the industry, and that was in the last century, back those of the 19th century, roughly, and it was exactly what you say, but somebody else does that. It's a lower level task. Now it's it's not only a C-suite function, but the CEO is really expected to be conversant in the strategy and issues surrounding technology. And I think it comes down to a couple areas. One is assuring a seamless and excellent experience for the organization's constituents, whether it be its members, external stakeholders, whoever it is, the board has an interest in making sure that the organization is engaging accessible, that the experience of people who interface with the organization And the whole interface is technologically based, is a good one, and that we're getting information and we're learning from each person who comes in boards. Want to make sure that that experience is there, and that they're gleaning the information that comes from that. The second area, I think, deals with emerging technology, and particularly around AI. That has become a strategic item for virtually every board I talk to how is AI going to be used? How are we managing the risks of AI as well as the upside of AI? Do we have an AI strategy? How is it going to help us competitively, and how are our competitors using it? How are we using it and really looking through the future? How are we understanding its capabilities and moving forward. And the third area, I would say, would be in the risk management. The whole area around cyber crime. Cyber Risk is keeping every board I know up at night. Now, the larger the organization, the more pearls the risk, the more chance for the organization to be hacked for information to get out there, and then the deal with that. And so boards want to make sure that there's a good strategy towards dealing with the cyber crime, cyber risk, and that the CEO and this team are really on top of that, including that not only staff need to be well trained in dealing with cyber risk, but the board itself, and really all the commitments anybody interacting with the organization needs to be cognizant of the risk factors. So those are three that come right to mind. Mark, I may have missed some items there. 
Mark Graham  36:13  Again Paul, perfect. I have nothing to add.
Dave Coriale  36:15  Then I will ask you both to add one thing as we close out. First of all, I appreciate you spending the time and explaining this. This the AGI, sounds like an awesome new resource for the community. I would like to know what advice you would give an association leader that is looking to build that healthy culture and board relationship in 2025. What do you both have to say? We'll start with you, Mark.
Mark Graham  36:37  I think it really comes down to spending time together and building that personal relationship, because that's where you're going to build, the trust, where you can be candid with each other. Paul spoke earlier, delivering bad news is much easier when you have a strong personal relationship with someone. For me, my recommendation for any chief executive with their board is spend more time with them.
Paul Pomerantz  37:00  I thoroughly agree with that. And the other thing I'd say is, it's no secret, we're in a tough time. The world has been turned on its head. We're trying to understand this world that we're in, and I think having frank discussions with the board that talk about, what are the risks now to our organization, our professional industry, and what are the opportunities? And one of the tools that we talk about, it's in a lot of materials that the AGI has, is and it's and will be discussed in the issue of board brief that'll be coming out soon is the use of generative discussions at the board level. In other words, having a discussion at the board that's not about finding answers, but it's about understanding and just as a board discussing, what do you see as the new risk? What do you see as new challenges to you? What's your experience in your profession and your business, and how's it changing now? And what are some of the things that our association needs to be paying attention to? So it's really trying not to try to avoid the controversy, but as we said before, lean into it a bit. Don't create argument, but try to understand it. How are different members of your organization, different generations, different ownership models, how are they experiencing the changes we're seeing taking place, and how do we best navigate it as an organization?
Dave Coriale  38:19  I love that piece in there, you said, try to understand it. It's a human nature. It's a common thing, especially when you're pressed for time, or don't have the relationship that you talked about, Mark to start assessing blame, as opposed to trying to assess and understand. So I think that's a super elegant way to put just try to understand it before you start solving it. Especially, and if I may be so bold, to offer my one piece of advice to this CEO and to the board, et cetera. It is something that you touched on a second ago, which is, don't cut spending on cybersecurity. We work with a lot of IT leaders, and It shocks me the number of organizations that the head of it is putting in the budget some type of cybersecurity, whether it's a tool to further protect, or it's education which is also going to protect, and they come back, and that's been what's cut. Yes, build a mindset of cybersecurity first in your organization. So again, thank you. I look forward to seeing you both in 3d in real life some point soon, but I appreciate very much the time we spent together here.
Paul Pomerantz  39:19  Thank you, David. This was fun. Yeah, lot of fun. Thanks, David.
Dave Coriale  39:23  Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy the U.S. and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on this topic, visit Associations NOW online at associationsnow.com. Thank you.